
Kell-Chat
An
Ongoing International Conversation
between Callaway and Kellaway and Kelway family researchers
discussing family origin, history and genealogy research in England
2007
(this file is VERY large and can be slow to load)
Primary Participants -
| Warwick Kellaway | Hamilton, New Zealand | jwk at slingshot.co.nz |
| Bruce Callaway | Sydney, New South Wales | bruce at callaway.com.au |
| Bill Callaway | British Columbia | callawaybill at shaw.ca |
| Sherrill Williams | Unicoi, Tennessee | sherrilluwilliams at prodigy.net |
| Pat Schnurr | Maitland, Florida | schnurr200 at aol.com |
| Cary Moore | Birmingham, Alabama | c.moore2 at juno.com |
| Bill Piper | Kent, U.K. | bill at dreycott.screaming.net |
| Brian Willoughby | Gloucestershire, U.K. | bhk.willoughby at btopenworld.com |
| Pat Scott | Swindon, Wiltshire, England | kellaway at kellread.plus.com |
| David Kelway | Royston, Hwerts, U.K. | chanticleer at breathemail.net |
| Lesley Haigh | UK | les.haigh at btinternet.com |
| Norma Kellaway | Australia | normakell at iprimus.com.au |
| Don Kellaway | Canada | quinte at kos.net |
| Sylvia Warham | UK | sylvia at pattilandfarm.com |
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jan 2, 2007
Subject: Tying up the loose ends
To those who may have missed my previous well wishes, Happy New Year. Sylvia is up an running and wrote:
So why
was Mr. KEILWAY so important that he could disenfranchise the custos
and clergymen of the Temple? Does this refer to Robert of the Wards and
Liveries? - I am sure you can all tell me. I am uncertain of his dates:
Attached is Prof Baker's draft of his entry in the DNB which he kindly let me have in 2003. Baker was Professor of Law at Cambridge at the time (and may well still be). It summarises a little of his career, but we have much more. The act 32 Henry V111 (1541) applied only to the custodians of the Temple Church, rather than "The Master of the Temple" who 'anciently' was the boss of all the Knights Templar. Seems in the issuance of pensions etc. correcting this, Robert of the Wards and Liveries, after the death of Henry V111 in 1547, 'persuaded' Edward V1 to grant him in perpetuity the Master's lodgings!
I have reason to believe that the attached pic taken last year are the 'lodgings' in question!

Will
come back to the other issues raised by Sylvia a little later
Bruce
Keilwey, Robert (1496/7-1581), lawyer, came of a family long settled in Dorset and Hampshire, where his kinsman Sir William Keilwey (d. 1569) was seated at Rockbourne. In a moot book which he possessed as a student he described himself as ‘Kydwelle alias Kelwey alias Kelowey alias Kelway alias Robertus Kylwey de Nova Sarum in comitatu Wilts. armiger’ (Harvard Law School MS 183, final leaf), suggesting that he may have regarded the family surname as being a corruption of Kidwelly. The inscription also confirms the supposition that he was the son of Robert Keilwey, sometime mayor of Salisbury, Wiltshire, who served as member of parliament for that city in 1523. The lawyer was appointed to the commission of the peace for Wiltshire in 1543, and was still ‘of Salisbury’ in 1547. Nothing is known of him before 1534, when he appears as a member of the Inner Temple. He became a bencher in 1542, pointing to a probable date of admission in the second half of the 1520s. He must therefore have spent an unusually long period in an inn of chancery, or have pursued some other occupation before turning to the law. In 1545 he became member of parliament for Bristol, and recorder of the same city, serving again in 1547 and (as member for Steyning) in 1559. He was an adviser to Edward Seymour, earl of Hertford and later duke of Somerset, who obtained for him the important appointment of surveyor-general of the Court of Wards in 1546 and intervened in 1548 to secure his discharge from reading in the Inner Temple. He retained his office as surveyor of the wards until his death, though he became embroiled in a heated dispute with the previous holder, John Hynde*, who twice tried to thwart Keilwey’s tenure by having him made a serjeant at law against his will. A serjeant’s writ was indeed issued to Keilwey in July 1552, whereupon he gave up his recordership of Bristol, but his excuses were accepted and he never did take the coif. During the reign of Edward VI, Keilwey and Sir Walter Mildmay were charged with the task of saving the grammar schools which were being threatened by the dispersal of chantry funds, and many of the schools were refounded in the king’s name. It is a testament to Keilwey’s ability and moderation that he retained his office under four sovereigns, through various changes in religion, and despite the fall of his patron Somerset in 1549. He remained active in the public administration until old age.
Keilwey’s public duties must have curtailed his private practice at the bar, though he was evidently still able to report cases in the time of Edward VI. Sir Simonds D’Ewes (1602-50) possessed a manuscript of ‘Keilweies reportes Edward. 6. penned by himselfe’, but these are no longer to be found. Keilwey’s name is, however, well known in the legal profession by reason of its association with a volume of earlier law reports printed in 1602 and usually cited as ‘Keilwey’. The title was ‘reports of certain cases selected from the books of Robert Keilwey’ (Relationes quorundam casuum selectorum ex libris Roberti Keilwey), and no claim was made that Keilwey was the author, as indeed he could not have been. The reports cover the period from 1496 to 1522 and were in fact written by John Caryll* (d. 1523), serjeant at law. Keilwey was a close friend of the reporter’s son John, a fellow Inner Templar, and borrowed Serjeant Caryll’s autograph manuscript from him some time before 1538, when he cited it in court. Keilwey’s manuscript passed to his relative John Croke* (d. 1620), who shared his chambers in Fig Tree Court, and it was Croke who saw it through the press in 1602, leaving out terms which he thought were adequately covered by the printed year books, and interpolating some eyre reports from Edward III’s reign (including the only known reports from the 1309 eyre of Guernsey) and eight quo warranto cases from the reign of Edward I. The work was reprinted in 1633 and 1688, and a new edition of Caryll’s reports was published by the Selden Society in 1999-2000.
Keilwey married Cecily, daughter of
Edward Bulstrode of Hedgerley and Upton, Berkshire, and they had one daughter,
Anne, who married Sir John Harrington of Exton, Rutland. He became a justice of
the peace for Berkshire in 1549, and it may have been through his marriage
around this time that he acquired property at Shellingford in that county, where
he probably lived until he obtained a lease of Coombe abbey, Warwickshire, in
1556. Besides these residences he also had a house in Fleet Street and another
at Stepney. Keilwey died on 21 February 1581, aged 84, and was buried at Exton,
where there is a handsome monument bearing his effigy in a long gown and an
inscription praising him as a distinguished esquire of the long gown (‘insignis
dum vixit inter togatas armiger’).
J. H. BAKER
References:
Hist. Parl. 1509-58, ii. 458-9.
Hist. Parl. 1558-1603, ii. 389-90.
L. W. Abbott, Law Reporting in England 1485-1585 (1973).
J. H. Baker ed., The Reports of John Caryll, 115 Selden Soc. (1999), intro.
Calendar of Inner Temple Records, i.
Calendar of Patent Rolls. Edward VI, i. 154 (of Salisbury, 1547).
J. H. Baker, Serjeants at Law (1984), p. 170.
H. E. Bell, The Court of Wards and Liveries (1953), pp. 20-1.
A. G. Watson, The Library of Sir Simonds D’Ewes (1966), p. 284.
Harvard Law School MS 183 (moot book).
will, PCC 9 Darcy
MI, Exton.
NB - this is considerably longer than my estimate, but Old DNB was woefully inadequate and now that I have reworked it I do not see an easy way of shortening it.From: Sylvia Warham
Sent: Jan 2, 2007
Subject: Tying up the loose ends
Happy New Year Everyone!
We have just about emerged from the waves of visitors. Just a few quiet days
before Saturday when the real 'Last of the Last' visitors will arrive on
Saturday. I hope you will all have found time to look at Sherrill's last email
because I think she really does make some important points about names being
translated from French and Latin into Middle English - then back to latin again!
Thank you for remind us about that just as we are about to launch into a new
year of (hopefully) fruitful research. I think one of my New Year's resolutions
will certainly be: 'to be open minded about the spellings of the names' - and to
clean my computer screen, which I have not done yet!
After Christmas Sherrill wrote:
> > However, yesterday I had found a reference in those aggravating
> > "Oxford Journals" to Osbert de Cailli, dean of Lewes. This item was
> > from The English Historical Review, Vol. LXIX, No. CCLXXI, pp.
> > 287-302:
> > "Osbert, dean of Lewes....de Cailli et dominos monarchos de Lewes
> > scilicet quod Robertus de Calli pro terre de Etuna et Walpol quam a
> > predictis dominis suis accepit........."
This reference to Lewes is extremely interesting. Incidentally, the Priory was dedicated to St Pancras, which is interesting in itself, because we have all come across several other references to St.Pancras. I did not know it when Sherrill first sent the reference, but have since discovered that the De Cailli's owned a Norfolk property called Walpole, and one can only guess that Etuna was also a Norfolk property. The Latin tells us that the Priory were
'persuaded to accept' both theproperties. We do not know the reason why,
because the quote is incomplete, but it could well have been in exchange for the appointment of Osbert to the position of Dean.
> > I then did a search on "Lewes Priory" and learned that it had been
> > established by William Warrenne and his wife, Gundreda (purported to
> > be a daughter of William I "the Conqueror"]. . . . .
> > So, now we have Osbert de Cailli, dean of Lewes, which was founded
> > by a half-brother of the Beaumont ancestors. And, I can go back to
> > bed!
> > Sherrill
Frightening isn't it, how all these people were so closely related!
Before we get into a new discussion there are one or two 'loose ends' I would like to tie off from last year. You may remember that during the year we had quite a lengthy discussion about the Knights Templar. Well, just before we stopped for the holidays I came across the following references which underline for all of us the importance of the KnightsTemplar to the c/k family until well into the 16th century:
1.From: http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/hkt/hkt16.htm
By sections 9 and 10 of the act 32 Hen. VIII., dissolving the order of the Hospital of St. John, it is provided that William Ermsted, clerk, the custos or guardian of the Temple Church, who is there styled "Master of the Temple,"
and Walter Limseie and John Winter, chaplains, should receive and enjoy, during their lives, all such mansion-houses, stipends, and wages, and all other profits of money, in as large or ample a manner as they then lawfully had the same, the said Master and chaplains of the Temple doing their duties and services there, as they had previously been accustomed to do, and letters patent confirming them in their offices and pensions were to be made out and passed under the great seal. This appellation of "Master of the Temple,"
which antiently denoted the superior of the proud and powerful order of Knights Templars in England, the counsellor of kings and princes, and the leader of armies, was incorrectly applied to the mere custos or guardian of the Temple Church. The act makes no provision for the successors of the custos and chaplains, and Edward the Sixth consequently, after the decease of William Ermsted, conveyed the lodgings, previously appropriated to the officiating ministers, to a Mr. KEILWAY and his heirs, after which the custos and clergymen had no longer of right any lodgings at all in the Temple.
So why was Mr. KEILWAY so important that he could disenfranchise the custos and clergymen of the Temple?
2. Did we have any records about Sir William of Rockbourne being a Templar?
From:http://thegrouchyscotsman.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/518:
'Hugh Paulet of Hinton St. George, Somerset, born by 1510, first son of Sir Amias Paulet of Hinton St. George by his second wife Lora, dau. of WILLIAM KEILWAY of Rockbourne, Hants. Educ. MIDDLE TEMPLE. Married first, c. 1530, Phillippa, dau. of Sir Lewis Pollard of Kings Nympton, Devon, by whom he had three sons and two dau.;'
I am aware that this probably refers to his education as a Lawyer, but given the first quote we have to wonder if the c/k's not only had the Templars 'all tied up', but also the law at this time. Were they the political law makers?
3. Does this refer to Robert of the Wards and Liveries? - I am sure you can all tell me. I am uncertain of his dates:
'# The Arms of Sir Robert Bell impaling Harington (the Harington Arms are depicted with the cadency mark 'a label') 21,; probably, Sir John Harington, first Baron Harington of Exton (1539/40
–1613) who married Anne (c.1554–1620), the daughter and heir of ROBERT KEILWAY of the MIDDLE TEMPLE'Ah well. I will leave it to all of you to decide how to interpret these quotes. They certainly puzzled me!
Kindest regards
Sylvia
It may be too early in 2007 to be off and running on the early history of the C/Ks, with both Sherrill and Sylvia still emptying out guests to make room for more, meantime still scrubbing pots and pans from the double whammy of Thanksgiving/Hogmanay/Christmas, Warwick still Batching and catching up on archived messages and yours truly hosting his youngest son Peter ten days out from the U.K. on wedding duties for his former Best Man. However, to start us off Sylvia has thrown us some queries from Sherrill's pre-Christmas mail to which I at least have replied.
From: Warwick
Kellaway
Sent: Jan 10, 2007
Subject: DORSET FAMILY IN THE 1300s
Hello All,
I have gone back through some old notes, and discovered there is often more there than appreciated.
We have been covering the C/K family pretty well from the 1400s, but struggle further back. These Lay Subsidy Records now match much of the other information we have been accumulating. Other Counties should offer the same, if you can find them.
Lesley has found the 1500/1600 tax records for Devon and Cornwall. They must hide information.
We do need to get into Wiltshire, as some of the attached items suggest.
Anyway, see what you think of these comments.
Another completely different angle. I got another set of maps last week, which for a change included Ireland. We know that C, G and K could be interchanged over there, such that Galway just might also have been Kelway? And that many of us seem to have some almost matching Irish DNA.
Not a terribly good map - Michelin - but I looked up "family" placenames. Not a lot, but here were three Callows - three - in different counties. But only one Calow on the mainland.
Have fun,
Warwick
THE DORSET FAMILY IN THE 1300S
We tend to think of the Dorset family in terms of later family locations.
In the 1300s however, they were in quite different parts of Dorset.
At the time of the prominent John le Calewe, of Gloucestshire, Wiltshire, Devon and Dorset, the 1327 and 1332 Lay Subsidy Rolls offer the following:
1327 1332
John *Petersham Farm/ Holt 6d John *Holt 8d
Weston 2/- *Gussage All Saints 3/4
Stalbridge Weston 2/1 Stalbridge Weston 2/1
Thomas Marnhull 6d Thomas Marnhull )
Iwerne Minster) 1/6
Stalbridge Weston 3/8
William *Sixpenny Handley 1/-
Alicia *Sixpenny Handley 1/-
Walter *Wimborne Albatis 2/6
Roger *Pentridge 2/- Roger *Wimborne St Giles 2/8
Robert Halstock 1/-
Adam *Chettle 2/-
Peter *Colehill 8d
Eustace *Shapwick 1/4
(Those with a * were properties in the vicinity of Gussage All Saints.)
It appears from this information that John le Calewe, as could be anticipated, had property at Stalbridge Weston and “Weston” in 1327. Weston might have been the old manor of Dunes Weston, maybe Calewe Weston. He also had a small farm at Holt, to the south east.
Five years later, there was no mention of a Weston, but there was a valuable new property at Gussage All Saints.
Why Gussage All Saints?
Thomas, perhaps his son(?), began with a small property at Marnhull, but five years later had a more valuable property at Stalbridge Weston than John. The most valuable of any.
Apart from Robert, who had a smallish property in the west at Halstock, all the other 8 recorded lived in the east, and vicinity of Gussage All Saints.
William and Alicia are interesting, as they seem to match the William with wife Alice later seen at Cayleways Wiltshire, where William was Patron of St Giles, after John, from 1336 to 1376.
Both were at Sixpenny Handley in 1327, but not there in 1332?
Walter had a valuable property at Wimborne Albatis in 1327, but was not there in 1332. Roger had a good property at Pentridge in 1327, but had moved to Wimborne St Giles in 1332. Were they father and son? Roger was referred to with Edmund in 1347, regarding a property at Malmesbury Wiltshire for a Margaret Cayleway - possibly their mother.
Walter le Calewe was the Magistrate at Blandford Forum in 1288, so could be expected to have had property. He also held land in Chippenham Hundred Wiltshire, and Legbe Episcopal Somerset in 1327 – clearly another man of note.
Walter Calewai and Elyas de Kaillewai were involved in a Tytherton land transfer in 1303 – a possible precursor to the building of the Church the next year.
Curiously Wimborne St Giles is over 10km from Wimborne.
There were a lot of St Giles Churches, but they seemed to have a special relationship for the C/K family. (St Giles at Cayleways manor in 1304, St Giles in the Wood in Devon. Edmund built another at Chenstone in 1400, and there had been another much earlier in Durham.)
(Actually Wimborne St Giles was called only St Giles on the 1811 Ordnance Map, as was St Giles in the Wood. There was an Upper Wimborne nearby however.)
The dominant family occupation of this region, to the north of Wimborne Minster and Blandford Forum, but not elsewhere, must have meaning. Did one of the Johns marry a lady from there? Did the property at Gussage All Saints perhaps contain another manorhouse?
There were spasmodic references to the area in the 1700s, but nothing since.
STOFORD 3
We have discovered several Stofords in the West Country. One Stoford is about 2 km from Sutton Bingham in Dorset/Somerset – or was it the site of the original Sutton Bingham? There is a Stoford/Stafford Barton near Dolton in Devon (and perhaps another Stowford).
There is yet another Stoford about a 1 km from Stapleford, 10 km from Salisbury, in Wiltshire.
(Salisbury is where we later had the two Robert Keilway Mayors, and an earlier William Webbe, alias Kellowe.)
Edmund de Cayleway, perhaps the uncle (there had been another referred to in 1330 and 1347) of the later Edmund, or the same man, may have been living at Stapleford in 1364, 12 years before going to Cayleways Wiltshire.
John le Calewe was of course at one stage the inheritor of the Estates of John Giffard, subsequent to his execution.
In 1327 at the Devizes IPM Giffard had held the moiety of Stapleford Manor. This was repeated at another IPM in 1355, where he was said to have the moiety of the Church there, and also held Orcheston.
Whether there was any family connection, or inheritance, here is not noted, but another reference at an IPM for John de Harnham in 1331 was held at Compton Chaumberlyn. Held before 12 men, they included Robert le Taillor, John le Smith, Robert de Stoford and a Michael le Webbe.
Two were obvious tradesmen originally, one perhaps a “Salisbury” Webbe, and Robert de Stoford.
I had earlier assumed that Robert was a Devon man, but Wiltshire Stoford is only a few km away. He appears again in 1333.
In the 1327 IPM, John Giffard also held ½ knights fee worth £10, in Tuderyngton Calowey. Had the Giffards perhaps held this back to the 1100s?
John Mautravers, the later inheritor, was also referred to, as was John de Caylowe.
So who was the Robert de Stoford mentioned above? Did he only live at Stoford - had the family just “acquired/inherited” the property through John Giffard - is it possible he was the Robert living away at Halstock in 1327, but not there in 1332?
Robert was still a popular name in the Salisbury area 150 years later. Was this their relationship?
The other interesting association here is that the Compton Chaumberleyn referred to above may be the source of the 1445 Thomas Calawey, alias Chamberleyn, who was pardoned over the death of Michael Rowperyn. Thomas was apparently a tax collector in Wiltshire in 1442.
He could also have been the 1327/1332 Thomas above, in the Lay Subsidies.
So it seems there may be another source for aliases – an option for the earlier “de”.
We have to wonder, whether the geographical name Stowford became so associated with the family that they took it with them to new locations. It seems the case in Dorset, and the evidence suggests the same in Wiltshire.
Did they perhaps rename the existing manor, or the village that served it, after arrival?
However, by studying these early records, we can trace the occupation of the family a little further back, and understand the meaning of such places as Marnhull, Gussage All Saints, Stapleford.
JWK Jan 2007
From: Lesley Haigh
Sent: Jan 10, 2007
Subject: Dorset Family in the 1300s
Hi Warwick,
Thank you very much for these records and comments. I'm sure they will help link the families eventually.
I wondered if anyone has the Lay Subsidy records for Kellaways in Devon and Cornwall 1300s? Can't find them on-line.
I guess you all know
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ where a search on Kellawe produces records of Richard de Kellawe Lord Palatine and Bishop of Durham1311-1316 also mentions of William de Kellawe and refs to Templars. French site but books can be read on-line in English and Latin.
Lesley
From: Sylvia Warham
Sent: Jan 11, 2007
Subject: Is this the London Family?
Hello Warwick and Les,
Thank you for all the records and information. I am sure we shall all find it very useful. In response to Les' query about the 1300 Devon Lay Subsidy I seem to remember that it is owned by the Devon and Cornwall record Society and can only be seen at DRO or the West Country Studies Library. At the latter you have to pay to become a temporary member and then they let you into the 'private' room where the records are kept. However, as Warwick pointed out, I think Sherrill may have a copy because she produces them from time to time. (I think they may be on Kellchat). I do know that they are not available on CD as the later ones are.
Thank you Warwick for your comments on the Temple and the Templars. I take
your point about not mixing up 'The Temple' and 'The Templars', but I think the point I was really trying to make is that we know the c/k's had strong connections with the Templars, and the Templars were themselves a sort of 'King's club for the very wealthy'. It is therefore interesting that after the dissolution of the Templars, when the Temple became Crown Property, the king chose to hand it over to Robert - a man who had strong connections with the Templars, and was more than likely one himself. Perhaps too, this discussion of the Templars is a good poit to tell you about some things I saw just before Christmas, and which Sherrill alluded to in her las email.
This is a copy ( with one or two additions!) of the mail I sent to Sherrill after everyone else had gone off to enjoy their Christmas celebrations:
Hello Sherrill,
Hope all is well with you. I know this is a busy time coming up to Christmas, but I have just had one of those amazing journeys. Tonight I was playing around with different c/k spellings when I arrived at the Seally family web site.
From http://www.irving-fam.com/seely.htm It states:
' Seely History
The Ancient Family of Sealy
As written by the late Sir Isaac Heard of the Herald's Office. ( SW:I know you are not too keen on heralds - but modern day ones have to be fairly accurate or they would lose their jobs!)
A1 Le Viconte de CAILLY, or CELY, of the duchy of Normandy.
(SW:Especially for Bruce and Bill Piper: do remember that the latinn pronunciation of C-E-L-Y is K-AY-L-I) Sent from thence ambassador from Duke William to Edward ye Confessor of England circa 1060.
A2 Le Sire de CAILLY, or CELY, son of ye Viscount de CAILLY, went to England with ye Conqueror 1066 and was at ye memorable battle of Hastings where King Harold was slain.'
This reference is not new. I found this much of it on Bill Piper's website - but if the Seally family truly are the Cailly family,and we know that the De Cailli were involed with the Giffards - then the rest of the quote, which does not appear on Bill's web site, is very important:
'A3 Sir William de CELY, or SAILLY, descended from Le Sire de CAILLY, elder brother of Gilbert de SAILLY Grand Master of the Templars who perished at sea in his passage from Dieppe to England 1169 - 15th Henry 2nd.
(SW:William and Gilbert are brothers in the Norfolk line. The Templar bit looks familiar, but note that the c/k's were not just any ordinary Templars - William was the Grand Master!)
A4 Edward or Edmund SAILLY, SELY, or SALLE descended from ye Sir William , being ye 8th in lineal descent from Le Sire de CAILLY, lived in ye time of King Edward 3rd. He married Joan sister and rich coheir of William Swanson, Esq. and relicit of John Newdigate of Harifred in ye county of Middlesex, Esq. whose issue succeeded to her large estates. She lived to a great age not being dead Anno 1432.'
Are these possibly the Middlesex c/k's? I googled for Seally and found this (Lengthy but well worth reading):
http://www.r3.org/bookcase/cely/cely2.htmlTHE CELY PAPERS
(The Cely Papers - Part I)
SELECTIONS FROM THE
CORRESPONDENCE AND MEMORANDA OF THE CELY FAMILY MERCHANTS OF THE STAPLE A.D. 1475-1488 EDITED FOR THE ROYAL HISTORICAL SOCIETY by HENRY ELLIOT MALDEN, M.A.
LONGMANS, GREEN, AND CO.
39 Paternoster Row, London
New York and Bombay
1900
Table of Contents
* Part I: Introduction with Footnotes & Appendix I & II
* Part II: Letters 1 through 50
* Part III: Letters 51 through 91
* Part IV: Letters 92 through 124
* Part V: Letters 125 through 150
It is a fascinating collection of letters between Richard, John and 'Old William' Cely. They owned Sutton, a manor of the Hospitallers in Prittlewell, Essex. The letters refer frequently to 'My Lord' who was Sir John Weston (familiar name?). There are references to trips to Gloucester and Newcastle, and it turns out that Sir John Weston was Prior of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem in England, 1477-1489. (The one in Gloucester that Nicholas Chailwaie left money for.) He is continually referred to in these letters. The text says:'The Priors of St. John held a reputed manor in Alveley parish, called More Hall, later part of KELLITON or Kennington.
(SW: so did Kennington Town in London get its name from the c/k's) The Order of St. John held land in the neighbourhood at Rainham and Southall, and the Church of Thurrock Grays.' (could these be the London c/k's?) The text continues:'Sir John Weston must have resided often on his Essex manor, and as a near neighbour of the Celys was a great man in their eyes. He was of the same family as Richard Weston, of Henry the Eighth's reign; but the Sutton referred to in these letters is not the later family place of Sutton, in Surrey, but is Sutton Temple, in Essex, as possession of the Hospitallers.
I am seriously beginning to wonder if these Cely letters are really c/k letters, and if they are it will be a very valuable source of information - but one cannot leap to conclusions. Would you have a look at the references and tell me what you think?
Kindest regards,
Sylvia
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jan 12, 2007
Subject: Is this the London Family?
Hello Sylvia
You are giving us a lot more to think about.
As regards the Templars, my understanding is that they were a fine, very moral, order initially, but towards the end of the 1200s had become corrupt. Possibly very corrupt, possibly it was more that they were too wealthy for some important Lords and Rulers. Maybe both, but they were brutally "destroyed", particularly in France. About 1311 I think?
Anyway since then, and more particularly today, a mysticism has built up, with the suggestion of them being a rather heavy , perhaps dark, secret society - shades of the da Vinci Code fiction.
Whether there is anything to that, I doubt we would ever find out.
Whether certain families did carry on the "organisation" also. I tend to think that it is all the substance of mythology and legend, which seems so popular today, where there is always claimed something sinister behind any happening - Princess Di for example.
Robert Keilway, over 200 years later, was granted a position of considerable power and authority in the realm, but probably through his own abilities and connections. He certainly had control over the re-distribution of Church Properties - subsequent to the Dissolution of the Chantries at least.
I feel it is a subject that could be researched indefinitely, and still not reach a conclusion, but still worth recording the evidence as it appears.
The Seelley Faily is clearly very strong, and looks very professional.
I don't know why, but I do though feel a little nervous about how they matched the early Cailly with Sailly, then Seeley. But presumably there was supportive evidence for the shared names.
The use of the "ye", with no other olde English, also looks strange for a knight(?) from the Heralds Office.
It is again a question of phonetics, and local dialects. Did the Cely/Cailli pronunciation change so much? I have no doubt that, as we have already discovered, strange changes occurred. Kellawe (pronounced -way) to Kellaw to Kellow, even Kelloe, in Durham. And there could be another case here - though having the first consonant change from a K to S pronumciation, seems less likely. (It could have happened with the Selloway family in the south, although I think that may have been much later.)
At the same time though, we can be fairly certain that quite different families have had their family names merged with unrelated families.
There can be two or more families with the same name, having derived in different parts, or through different occupations - there must have been a lot of Smiths about the countryside. There were apparently two Weston families - one in the north, and our Dorset version. This is evidenced by differing COA, and DNA.
I suspect there may have been two or more C/Kailli/Cailleway families, coming from the same part of Normandy, at different times. From Cailli sur Eure, and Caillouet. They may have been related, maybe not, but probably knew of each other, and did not worry when their names were shared, in the written form (which they may never have read anyway).
We have the DNA of Michael Cayley. His DNA does not match any of the rest of us in the CFA Programme (the connection could only have been some 800 or more years ago, and DNA markers can mutate), but if you take a mean/average of our first 25 markers, he is as close to that mean as any of us - actually more so than most. (Only 16 of our people, out of 70, have an equal or closer match to the "mean".) Others disagree with my theorising, but I suggest there probably was a match back there.
We need to look more closely at the Seelley family - their COA maybe, but certainly their DNA, if available.
I couldn't access either immediately.
The Cely papers - I note Cely dropped out of the Irving Family Genealogy page at the end of the 1300s - took a little decyphering, but what worried me was whoever transcribed them did not seem to know correct dates. Anno lxxv is only 75, anno lxxvj 76.
Interesting that they apparently survived, but what did they have to do with the short, and denigrated reign of Richard III?
The Celys did though seem to be Merchants of the Staple, just a little before the time of our John.
Regards
Warwick
From: Sylvia Warham
Sent: Jan 13, 2007
Subject: Is this the London Family?
Hello Warwick,
Before the Norman conquest I think you will find that the English spoke
Celtic,forms of which are still found in Wales and Cornwall today.
Yes Sherrill, you are right about the property, and thank you for reminding me. I did look at the property that the Cely family owned. Following my discovery of the Cely letters I started looking at the Sealey family to see if there were any links to the c/k's and came across this:
From
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Cabin/1066/122Chaffcombe.html:Sealey family
A hamlet at Lidmarsh is first recorded as Libbemersa in 1180 and Forde abbey received grants of rent and small amounts of land there in the 13th century.
The overlordship of these was claimed by the earl of Gloucester in 1315 but was awarded to the heirs of JOHN LE SOR in the following year. It is doubtful whether there was a single dominant estate there in the 13th century, but a part of the hamlet may have formed an element of the ½ fee at Cudworth and Knowle St. Giles held in 1303 and 1316 by MATTHEW DE ESSE and HUMPHREY DE KAIL, and in 1346 by DE KAIL alone. At his death in 1348 WILLIAM KAIL held a messuage and 30 a. of land in Lidmarsh under ROBERT FITZPAYNE which passed to his son JOHN (d. 1384). JOHN also held 20 a. of pasture in Aveneleseigh, later AVISHAYS. In 1385 John's widow received in dower 20 a. of land at Okenehede and 10 a. at Lidmarsh in respect of these lands, then stated to be parcel of Cudworth manor. THOMAS KAIL (d. 1394), son of JOHN, was succeeded in turn by his sister IDONY (d. 1401), wife of JOHN POULETT, and her sons John and Thomas. Both sons died in 1413 and the lands, then totalling 100 a. in Aveneleseygh and 20, a. in Lidmarsh, reverted to a feoffee, John Kaynes (d. 1420). The latter's daughter Joan (d. 1462), wife successively of Sir John Speke and Hugh Champernowne, (d. 1482) was succeeded by her grandson, John son of John Speke. William Speke, described as of Avishays in 1506, was followed by his son Thomas and grandson John Speke. By 1530 the estate was held as a freehold under Chaffcombe manor.
John le Sor we have come across before - and I am Sherrillwill be able to put more flesh on that than I can! I think this Thomas and William could have been the Bapton, Dorset c/ks cousins of the Somerset Payne's, but I was very surprised to see the Poulett involvement, because they were Rockborn related weren't they? Perhaps with your huge background knowledge all of you will be able to understand it better than I can, but it does look as if the Sealey/Cely/ Cailli family also spelled their name Kail. Let me know what you think.
Kindest regards
Sylvia
From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Jan 13, 2007
Subject: Is this the London Family?
Good going, Sylvia. The Le Sors are important and we should investigate them further. There are several references to them involving C/Ks. I have been on the Kail(e)/Kayle bandwagon for a long time. Fortunately I recognized the possibilities while still researching in England and copied several items regarding them. I am certain that the wife of one of the Pauletts was a Kaile.
I am assigning some homework: please go to the following link about the Bartlett family. This covers much of our "wonderings" about origins of Norman families, and could easily apply to our C/K origins, not saying that we have Bartlett origins, but explaining how we may have become who we are.
www.bartlett.to/ then click on Bartletts of PendomerRead all of it, beginning with the AMENDMENT. Warwick will be especially interested in the TUDOR section because there is much about our familiar Dorset areas.
I copied this off because I concentrate best with my feet up, rather than hunched over and squinting at a 'dusty' monitor screen. Besides, you can make notes on copies! There is reference to KELLAWAYS once owning Bardolfston (sp.?), but I think this is reference to one of Robert's (W & L)acquisitions. I have not finished reading this. Mr. Peter Bartlett, the author of this treatise, is a resident of NSW, AU. His insight is interesting, and he seems to have done his homework.
Later,
Sherrill
From: Sylvia Warham
Sent: Jan 14, 2007
Subject: Kellaway/Stafford Taxes
Hello Warwick,
Thank you so much for your document on the Gussage families etc. I think I may have something more to add to that. When the first part of 'The Enigma of Moistown' was published. A lady from Zeal Monachorum in Devon wrote to me telling me that much of Broadwoodkelly was owned by the Sturt family of Moore Critchel in Dorset. Even though I followed it up, at the time I could find nothing, and it did not make much sense. However, she did mention Moore Critchel in connection with the Sturt family and BWK, so my ears pricked up when I saw it in your document. I googled around but the onlty reference I came to was:
Kellaway family history, March 2005, Warwick Kellaway, http://www.callawayfamily.org/document/Dorset.htm!!!!!!!!
The dates you refer to are in the 1800's but Henry Sturt was at Moore Critchel
in the 1600's. If it is true that the Sturt family owned BWK property in
the 1600's ( There is not much property in BWK - even now it consists of less than 200 people)- the chances are that it was c/k property prior to being Sturt property in the 1500's ( We know that John of Cullompton owned much of it and we have not yet discovered how much the ck/Staffords owned). All of this suggests to me that there was a Sturt /ck marriage in the late 1500's.
The Sturt family passed on the title of 'Lord Allington' if that is of any assistance.
Kindest regards
Sylvia
From: Lesley Haigh
Sent: Jan 6, 2007
Subject: Early tax records
1524 1543 1545 Cornwall Subsidies
1524/5
Henry Kylway ) Levabe (Mabe) G5 bracketed together
John Harry )
John Calway Peryn Burght (Penryn) G2
William Kelwa Melyan (Mullion) L2
John Kelowe Helston W1
William Kelowe Helston G2
Walter Chaylowe Fowy Burgh (Fowey) G1
Thomas Chalowe Fowy Burgh G2
Philip Callowe Seynt Blasy G2
John Callowe Seynt Blasy jun G1
John Caloes Ewa (St Ewe) G4
William Calway Seynt Columb le Overa G1
Thomas Kyllyowe Burgo de Bodmyn G4
John Calwaye Seynt Kua (Kew) W1
William Kelyowe Seynte Tetha (Teath) L8
John Calwaye Seynt Nyott L10
Robert Kellyowe de est Seynt Nyott G3
Robert Kelyow de west Seynt Nyott G10
Robert Kelyowe Warlegan G10
John Kelyowe Lansalays L20
John Palle ) Lanteglos juxta Fowy
Robert Ude ) cum burg de Polruan G10 All bracketed together
Joan Kelyowe )
Thomas Kellyowe Seynt Clere G10
William Collow Tyndagel G10
Thomas Collow Tyndagell G4
Richard Collow Tyndagell G8
1543/4
William Kelway Uny Lalant G2
Philip Kelwaye Seynt Mylyan (Mullion) G2
William Kelwaye Seynt Mylyan L2
Thomas Chelowe Fowey G5
Philip Kalway Blasye G2
John Calway Blasye G6
John Kelow Luxulyan G1
John Kyllyow Lanhedryk G7
Roger Kyllyow Lanhedryk G4
Thomas Killyow Burg de Bodmin G4
William Kyllyowe Tetha G9
John Calwaye Seynt Nyot G13 Collector John Calway
Kelliow Town recorded here
William Kelyow Seynt Clere G2
John Kelowe Seynt Clere G2 Killiow place name
Thomas Cullowe Seynt German G4
John Cullowe Seynt German G1
John Cullowe Burgus de Downeheved G2 Launceston
William Culloo Tyntagell G19
Henry Cullowe Tyntagell G5
Thomas Cullowe Tyntagell G2
Richard Culloo Tyntagell G1
John Calway Mynstre G1
Subsidy Grants 1545
Jane Kellyow Illogan G9
Benevolance 1545
John Calwaye Nyott 8s 8d
John Kelyow Lansalowsse 30s
William Collow Tyntagel 12s 8d
No Stafford/Stowford recorded in Cornwall
1641 Protestation Returns
Cury
Austin Kelway signed
John Kelway signed
Mullion
Peter Kelway +
Sithney
Thomas Kelway signed
Gulval
John Kelwaye signed
Uny Lelant
Robert Kellway +
John Kelwaye signed
William Kelway signed
William Kelwaye signed Constable
St Hilary
Richard Celloway +
St Columb Major
Thomas Calwaye
Thomas Calwaye jun
William Calwaye
Gilbert Calwaye
Henry Calwaye
Anthony Calwaye
Peter Calwaye
St Merryn
Henry Cellow
St Blazey
John Killiowe signed
Luxulyan
Tho Kellow +
Bennett Kellow +
St Clement
Walter Callaway +
Boconnoc
John Kelloe
Treneglos
Tho Stafford signed
Lansallos
John Callaway signed
John Killyowe signed
Rainald Kyllyowe signed
Frances Kyllyowe signed
John Kallaway signed
Thomas Kyllyowe signed
Oliver Kyllyowe signed |
Charles Kyllyowe signed | together
Richard Kylliow signed |
Blisland
Thomas Kellow signed
St Kew
Will Callaway +
John Callaway +
Rich Callaway +
St Teath
John Kellow +
Forrabury
John Callaway +
Minster
Degory Callaway +
Tintagel
William Cullow +
Henry Cullow +
Nicholas Cullow +
Clemence Callaway +
Landrake
William Killiowe signed
William Killiowe signed
St Germans
Ezechell Celloe signed
St Ive
Rignald Kellowe
Launcells
Richard Callway
Cornwall 1660-1664
Poll Tax 1660 £ s d
John Kellway Turn Treraboe (St Keverne) 1
Ambrose Kelway Grade 1
William Callaway & wife Mylor 1
Grace Kelway Mullion 1
Edward Kelway & Wife Mullion 1
Richard Killiowe Esq Sth Petherwin 10 0 0
Jane Kellowe St Ewe 1
Jane Kelliow St Blazey 1
John Kelliow gent St Blazey 1
Francis Kellowe Lanlivery 1
William Killiow Luxulyon 1
Jowell Kelliow St Mewan 1
Subscribers Free Present 1661
Robert Kellow St Germans 10
Tho Calloway St Kew 10
Hearth Tax 1664 ex = examined bm = by mistake. Not mentioned – in earlier returns Exempt because of poverty or exempt. Ret = returned (when asked earlier)
William Kellway Saltash 3 ret one too many bm
Richard Kelliow Esq Sth Petherwin 10 ex
Joseph Clynicke now Math Cellow St Germans 5 & hath but 4 to be found
Robert Keelow St Germans 4 ex
Ezekiell Kellowe St Germans 1 ex
Ezekiel Kelliow St Germans 2 not mentioned
Rich Callaway jun Stratton 2 not rated poor
Nich Kellowe St Teath 1 not chargeable
John Kellowe St Teath 1 not chargeable
Thomas Callaway St Kew 3
Jane Callaway St Kew 1 not chargeable
Mrs Jane Kelly(o)w St Blazey 6 ex
Robert Callway Tregowny 1ret 1 short
Bennet Kelliviow Luxulyan 2 ex
Charles Calliway St Michael Penkevil 2 ex
William Kellaway Lelant 2 ex
John Kellway now Robert Kellway Lelant 1 ex v. poor not rated
Wm & John Kelway or occupants Lelant 2 not mentioned
Richard Kelliow Esq Lansallos 5 two fallen down
Henry Killiow Lansallos 1 ex v. poor not rated
William Kellowe St Neot 1 ex
William Callaway Mylor 3 ret one too many bm
Edward Kellway Mullion 1 ex
Grace Kellway Mullion 1 not mentioned
Edmund Callaway St Agnes 1 not mentioned
Christian Callaway St Columb Maj 1 ex
Gilbert Calloway St Columb Town 1 not rated poor
No Stafford/Stowford in all Cornwall
Early Kellaway Taxes G=goods L=land W=wages
Devon 1524/5 Subsidy Rolls
John Callowe Honyton 1524/5 G20
William Callowe “ 1524/5 W1
John Callow Hemyock 1524/5 G6
John Callow “ W1
John Kaylway Collumpton 1524/5 L66 2/3