
Kell-Chat
An
Ongoing International Conversation
between Callaway and Kellaway and Kelway family researchers
discussing family origin, history and genealogy research in England
2004
(this file is VERY large and can be slow to load)
Primary Participants -
| Warwick Kellaway | Hamilton, New Zealand | jwk at slingshot.co.nz |
| Bruce Callaway | Sydney, New South Wales | bruce at callaway.com.au |
| Bill Callaway | British Columbia | callawaybill at shaw.ca |
| Sherrill Williams | Unicoi, Tennessee | sherrilluwilliams at prodigy.net |
| Pat Schnurr | Maitland, Florida | schnurr200 at aol.com |
| Cary Moore | Birmingham, Alabama | c.moore2 at juno.com |
| Bill Piper | Kent, U.K. | bill at dreycott.screaming.net |
| Brian Kelway Willoughby | Gloucestershire, U.K. | bhk.willoughby at btopenworld.com |
| Pat & David Scott | Swindon, Wiltshire, U.K. | kellaway at kellread.plus.com |
| David Kelway | Royston, Hwerts, U.K. | chanticleer at breathemail.net |
From: Brian
Kelway Willoughby
Sent: Sep 2, 2004
Subject: Kempley, Gloucestershire: de Cailly Connection
This item caught my eye recently - my apologies if you know it already. I had it in mind during my recent trip to Normandy (of which more shortly).
The Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Archaeological Society (BGAS Vol XXXVI - 1913, pp 130-142), contain an article on The History of Kempley Manor and Church, Gloucestershire, by W St Clair Baddeley. (Kempley is a small village some 17 miles WNW of Cheltenham, distinguished by its beautiful small Norman Church which still has the remains of wall paintings dating back to about 1110.)
The article includes a pedigree of the de Longchamp family, in which W St C B notes that Kempley was part of the dowry of Emma de St Leger when she married Hugh de Longchamp (in very roughly 1170), and shows that Hugh’s younger brother Stephen de Longchamp married Petronel, daughter of Osbert de Cailly (probably in about 1200 +/- 20 years or so). [This provides a somewhat tenuous link between the de Caillys and Kempley, but it does apparently account for the W St C B mentioning the de Caillys at all.]
PART I
The marriage (cc 1200) of Petronel de Cailly to Stephen de Longchamp apparently produced 3 daughters:-
1. Richenda de Longchamp - married (cc1230) Matthew de Cleres, Castellan of Dover
2. ???????? de Longchamp - married (cc 1230) (?Stephen d’Evreux)
3. ???????? de Longchamp - ????????
Notes:-
(A). The village of Cailly-sur-Eure (current population 233) and the town of Evreux (51,198) are only 13 km (8 miles) apart.
(B). The two Caillouets are also each only 15 km (9 miles) from Cailly-sur-Eure.
(C). I happen to have a ref to an Osberto Caiuel (Somerset) in an 1181 Pipe Roll.
PART II
The de Longchamp pedigree throws some interesting light on the family into which Petronel de Cailly was marrying. In summary Hugh de Longchamp (died c 1197): son of Gilbert de Longchamp: descendant of Hugh de Longchamp 5th Baron who died 1184. The Hugh who died 1197 married a de Laci.
They had 6 sons and were evidently a prominent family at that time:-
1. Henry de Longchamp, Sheriff of Hereford, died 1204
2. Osbert de Longchamp, Sheriff of Yorkshire and Westmoreland
3. Hugh de Longchamp, held 1 fee in Normandy
4. William de Longchamp, Chancellor of England, Bishop of Ely, died 1197
5. Stephen de Longchamp, Steward of Normandy (see above)
6. Robert de Longchamp, Prior of Ely, died 1239
Notes.
(A). Hugh de Longchamp (#3 above) held 1 fee in Normandy - the dowry of his wife Emma (de S Leger) included the Manor of Kempley in Gloucestershire.
(B). William de Longchamp was a famous Chancellor of England, variously in and out of favour with the King, Richard I.
(C). Stephen de Longchamp (#5 above), Steward of Normandy, married cc 1200 Petronel, daughter of Osbert de Cailly (see above).
(D). The County (shire) and City of Gloucester were connected with Normandy in various ways at that time. Robert (Curthose) Duke of Normandy, the eldest son of William the Conqueror, was buried in 1134 in the Abbey Church of Gloucester, at his own wish. The Abbey later (1540) became Gloucester Cathedral. (One of the Cathedral’s treasures today is a remarkable lifesize painted wooden monument of this Robert of Normandy, depicted as a Crusader and carved some 150 years after his death.)
PART III
Conclusions.
This BGAS reference connects the place and family of (de) Cailly with the Kempley area of Gloucestershire and with specific governing/establishment officials of Normandy, Gloucestershire and elsewhere, in the 12 th and 13 th centuries.
Any comments?
Best wishes to all,
Brian
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Sep 2, 2004
Subject: Kempley, Gloucestershire: de Cailly Connection
Brian
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Sep 2, 2004
Subject: Aucher/Calloway
The article about Sir Humphrey Gilbert on the CFA Blog and his possible mother-in-law, Ann Aucher nee Kellaway sent me into a flurry of research.
From: Bruce
Callaway
Sent: Sep 2, 2004
Subject:
Aucher/Calloway
Whilst we have crawled over
the Rockbourne family for years, there is probably much that we still
do not know.
Already, persuing the
reference to Sir Humphrey, I have been led to his associates who,
following his lead began visiting Roanoke SC and transporting settlers to
Virginia. Interestingly they came from Kent and Essex, so we may have been
blinkered in seeking ancestors from the south west counties of the U.K.
rather than the south east. A germ of an idea is developing, and I have
been led back to the original research by Currier-Briggs (a professional
genealogist employed by the CFA). He spoke often about the early Kellaway
settlers.
Bruce
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Sep 4, 2004
Subject:
Aucher/Calloway
Bruce
I found the biography of Sir Humphrey
interesting, even if he did not achieve a lot in the Americas, other than
claim Newfoundland for England. He was not covered in my new Historical
Atlas of Exploration for example, although his brother was referred to.
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Sep 9, 2004
Subject: Aucher/Calloway
We popped this Sir William into the 'too hard' basket a couple of years ago. I too have his dates as 1440-1507 with daughters Alice, and Lora who married the famous Sir Amyas Paulett in 1483, and Jane who married John Payne (and his complicated family). Without wishing to further complicate matters at this stage, I believe that it was suggested that these girls had a brother Robert (of New Sarum) who was possibly the father of Robert of the Wards and Liveries!
I seem to remember that we "filed" this subject a while back. Will have to read Kellchat to refresh. What I casually recall is that in a Chancery (or Ct of Request) document, dealing with the "jointure" of Dame Anne (w/o the 2nd William, knight) in the Rockborne estate it is mentioned that Sir John Callaway and Mr. Robert Callaway concurred with Dame Anne's jointure agreement, made at or before her marriage. This raised the question - who is "Mr. Robert" ?
From: Brian
Kelway Willoughby
Sent: Sep 11, 2004
Subject: Charles
Mary Lull married Charles Kellawaye on 22 November 1599 at St Saviour, Southwark. After Charles died the widow Mary became the second wife of Anthony Finch on 16 July 1607. Mary was buried in 1648 at Petworth, Sussex. Anthony Finch had issue by both of his wives.
Visitation of Sussex 1633-4 Harleian Soc Vol 53 p32 1905
The Dawtrey pedigree has Elizabeth d of Charles Kelloway of Rockborne, Southampton as second wife of Sir Henery Dawtrey of Moorhouse, Sussex. They appear to have married in c1630 - at the time of the Visitation they had one child, a son John Dawtrey.
Melksham Parish Registers
I had hopes, Sherrill, of impressing you with Charles Kellway, son of Thomas, bp29/12/1631 - until I found that you had given me the info in your letter of 07/12/01 !
Cornwall Hearth Tax 1660/64 - St Michael Penkevil Parish.
Charles Calliway
I think I'm rather surprised how few Charleses I seem to have, both pre and post-Commonwealth. Perhaps my own distributions are skewed for some other reason(s)?
Not very elucidatory, I fear!
Best wishes
Brian
From: Brian Kelway Willoughby
Sent: Sep 21, 2004
Subject: Cailly-sur-Eure and the two Caillouets
Herewith my Notes on my very brief
visit (a few hours) to our part of Normandy on 04/06/04 - sorry
for delay. 1 Locations 1.1 Caillouet (- Orgeville) (my “Caillouet I
“). Located c 13 km [8 miles] due East of Evreux (itself 56 km
[35 miles] due South of the centre of Rouen). The village lies a
few 100 metres South of Rue Nationale N13. 1.2. Cailly-sur-Eure . Located c 13 km [8 miles] North
of Evreux, on the East bank of the Eure, off the D71 road (and the
larger N154 connecting Evreux and Rouen). (The Eure is a smaller
river which joins the Seine in the southern outskirts of
Rouen, and gives its name to the Departement of Eure (No 27).)
1.3. Caillouet (- le Mesnil Jourdain) (my “Caillouet II”
- the hamlet of Caillouet - within the Commune of le Mesnil
Jourdain - and a new candidate for our attention.) Located c 6 km
[4 miles] WSW of Louviers (itself between Evreux and Rouen), just
S of the D133 road. 1.4. Relative positions.As it happens all three places
lie on a more or less straight line running SE to NW. Cailly-sur
Eure lies near the centre, 15 km [10 miles] from
Caillouet-Orgeville (to the SE), and 10 km [6 miles] from
Caillouet-le Mesnil Jourdain (to the NW). (Caillouet-Orgeville
and Caillouet-le Mesnil Jourdain are thus only about 25 km [16
miles] apart.) 1.5. Maps. The popular series of Pneu Michelin
1/200,000 maps (1 cm : 2 km) generally show Caillouet-Orgeville,
Cailly-sur-Eure and le Mesnil Jourdain. The IGN (Institut
Geographique National) Carte de Promenade Series at twice the
scale (1/100,000) is more informative: Sheet 08 covers all three
and specifically indicates Caillouet-le Mesnil Jourdain. 2. Caillouet (- Orgeville) The village etc still looks rather uninteresting (I last
visited it on 03/07/97). Evidently a purely agricultural
community until the last few decades or so - cottages, barns etc
are still being converted to relatively modest homes, perhaps some
second homes. I have seen little evidence yet of relevant “historical “ past,
although there may be some there. (The village lies on an ancient
Roman road). A modest church of indeterminate date
(reconstructed?) - locked - I haven’t yet been inside, but would
be surprised to find anything very noteworthy. 3. Cailly-sur-Eure Large enough, with a population of 233, to be included in the
Michelin Red Guide. Rather more prosperous. Just before the
village entry sign on the D524 there is a big spread - clearly a
lot of money involved - 100 metre entry drive - (two beautiful
thoroughbred horses grazing) - long row of picturesque converted
half-timbered farmhouse/barns etc lawn - patio - more
outbuildings, some in ruins/not yet reclaimed/converted. On into
the village - stopped at the Bar des Pecheurs for two Espressos (madame
playing dominoes with three local men - not v welcoming) - past
Auberge des Deux Lapins (Logis de France chain) - some big,
expensive/attractive houses/gardens in road down to the river.
Large rectangular building on other side of water - perhaps once a
watermill on a tributary stream? Another similar building
converted to a large house, with car, catamaran on lawn etc etc.
Church - very much like Caillouet I - also locked. Several
venerable half-timbered buildings in the Normandy style. Definitely a “manorial/historical” feeling to the village. 4. Caillouet ( - le Mesnil Jourdain) This Caillouet is a prosperous dormitory hamlet - with many
smart conversions of old houses. No Church in the hamlet - the
Parish Church is that of and at le Mesnil-Jourdain, c 1 km from
Caillouet in a straight line - perhaps 3 km [2 miles] by the
twisting country road). This Church turned out to be part of a
fascinating and very attractive small complex of buildings. The Church itself is relatively large and ancient - perhaps an
Abbey at one time? The present structure apparently dates from the
15-16th Centuries, but is almost certainly on the site
of earlier buildings - needless to say it too was locked.
Attached to the Church is a beautiful old Normandy house, le
Manoir d’Hellenvilliers, containing a lot of very old
half-timbering, stonework etc etc - certainly large enough and
impressive enough to have been a local Manor for some centuries. There is evidence that the Order of the Temple of Solomon was
represented in this Caillouet with some sort of Seigneurie. (The
Order was set up in 1118 and the Knights Templar were a major
force in the Crusades (following the earlier example of Duke
Robert of Normandy)). Apparently there is currently a "Pub Les
Templiers" Bar/Discotheque in the village!. 5. Comments I am interested and surprised to note that any official
reference to “Caillouet” (ie without further qualification) seems
invariably to refer to Caillouet - le Mesnil Jourdain, rather than
to Caillouet - Orgeville. This may be just the luck of the draw so far, but I am inclined
to the idea that although (i) they are both within the Departement
of Eure, and (ii) close to each other, and (iii) only Caillouet -
Orgeville) is included in Michelin Maps, it is Caillouet - le
Mesnil Jourdain which is in some way the “senior“. And so my friends I propose Caillouet - le Mesnil Jourdain
for our serious consideration and further study as a possible fons
et origo of the C/K clan. Any comments? With Best Wishes (and sincere apologies for a very turgid paper
- even for me!) Brian From: Warwick Kellaway Brian,
From: Philip Caillouet Brian: From: Warwick Kellaway Bruce, Brian, From: Warwick Kellaway Hi Brian From: Sherrill Williams From: Warwick Kellaway Dewlish and the Isle of
Wight Connection From pre 1600 English
Records, compiled by Sherrill U Williams. Dewlish:
1545 John Callowe
- taxed for goods There is no evidence as
yet of the origin of the Dewlish family. However Dewlish is in
the heart of Dorset, close to most of the recorded locations of
the C/K family, from Calawe Weston in the 1200s, through
Sherborne in the 1400s. As all of these men were
from Develysche (Dewlish?) Manor, the name differences
presumably disguise the same family. Being a manor, it could
be assumed Develysche was a C/K family property before 1525. As John and Robert
appear in 1525, and 20 years later, they were presumably born
around 1490-1500. Edward possibly around 1480, Thomas more
likely about 1515-20. The “goods” would
presumably mean merchandise of some sort, very likely wool.
John possibly working
for Edward and Robert at the earlier date, was perhaps
itinerant? Thomas, who may have
some relevance on the Isle of Wight, was evidently living at the
manor in 1542-5. Milborne St Andrew (2km
from Dewlish):
1542/5 Edward Cayleway
Taxed for goods
1580 John Keyleway
b 1583 Thomas Kaileway
c - Father William 1583 Thomas Kellway
b 1587/8 Henry Kellway
c - Father William 1588 Arthur Kellway
c 1594 Thomas Kellway
c - Father William 1595 John Kellway
m - Alice Eyers 1596 Thomas Kellway
b The 1525 Edward, Richard
and John were almost certainly closely related, born also around
1490-1500. It could also be assumed
that Edward from Dewlish was the same man as Edward from
Milborne, possibly moving from the Develysche Manor to Milborne
between 1525 and 1545. Possibly the senior, and father of
Richard and John, also of Robert and Thomas from Dewlish. The
two Johns could have been cousins. There are no BDM records
available for Dewlish at that time, and it appears that the
remainder of the family might have left the manor some time
after 1545, for elsewhere, but they were not recorded in
Milborne. There apparently was
also a William in Milborne, born around 1560, with two sons
named Thomas, neither of whom may have survived. Again Edward appears as
the merchant. Richard initially was working for wages.
The names are more
recognisable. Mappowder (10km from
Dewlish): 1539 Peter Keyleway
Muster Roll Milton Abbas (3km from
Dewlish and Milborne): 1542 Peter Cayleway
Muster Roll Mappowder and Milton
Abbas are both close to Dewlish. Whether or not location
is relevant to the families there, it appears that Peter, born
perhaps about 1515, did live nearby, and moved from Mappowder to
Milton Abbas. He also presumably held
property to be included on the Muster Roll. While there remains n
Sent: Sep 22, 2004
Subject: Cailly-sur-Eure and the two Caillouets
Sent: Sep 22, 2005
Subject: Cailly-sur-Eure and the two Caillouets
It sounds as though you had a very interesting trip, especially
with the discovery of another place named “Caillouet.” As a
person with that surname, I do thank you for making that discovery
and for sharing the information! Two questions however: (1) Was
the name spelled locally with a tréma or with any other
diacritical mark? (2) How was the name pronounced locally?
For some years now, I have been building a (still small)
collection of place names in France where persons with the name
“Caillouet” live (or lived), were born or died or buried, or were
married. Some of these names even came to my attention through
the Callaway website. Some came through correspondence with
living persons named “Caillouet.” Many are indeed clustered in
Eure, but others are in Brittany, Normandy, and Poitou. None,
alas for you, are from the era of the 11th Century
thus not likely to be helpful to you in connecting “Callaway” to “Caillouet.”
I’ve also done a bit of map searching for place names in France
having something in common with the surname “Caillouet.” That
means searching for “cail” words and “ouet” words. Southern
Brittany has quite a number of place names ending in “ouet,” “ouët,”
“oet,” “oët,” the meaning of which in Bretonne may be related to
the French “ouest” (the English west). This, coupled with the way
“Caillouet” was misspelled by royal notaries in New France (i.e.,
“Cayouette”), leads me to believe that in Brittany at least
“Caillouet” was pronounced “Ky-you-wet” rather than Ky-you-way
but you’ve heard that argument before.
The real purpose in my writing you is to ask if you have ever
investigated another place I’ve found in my map searching: Have
you ever noticed the place called “Chailloué” just north of Sées,
which in turn is just north of Alençon on highway 138 in Orne,
rather than Eure? It seems to me that “Chailloué” might be a
closer match to pipe rolls entry “Chaillewai” than “Caillouet”
would be. “Chailloué” would be pronounced “Ky-you-way,” would it
not?
Philip Caillouet
Sent: Sep 24, 2004
Subject: Caillouet
Sent: Sep 28, 2004
Subject: Caillouet
You have got us going again about Caillouet. It is so
frustrating living down here in the Antipodes. In the
past I have got a huge amount of information from the
LDS, but never anything of much value on France.
You should have my note from late last night. There
just has to be something there about Cailly-sur-Eure and
the two Caillouets. It almost
seems, at this stage, that the French are confused
themselves. Probably, as with us, no-one has actually
got around to doing the research, and it would be
difficult for us to access their documents, let alone
any language peculiarities. The fact that there are two
Caillouets so close together must have caused problems,
hence their means of differentiation.
As with the others, I have never seen the "new" one, but
the village sounds very interesting in itself. As you
say, what appear to be medieval buildings must indicate
a place of some import. If an Abbey, we could be
looking at a foundation back to the 7-800s. There are
records of the early abbeys. The "other" Caillouet was
on a Roman Road, therefore possibly older, but it could
also have grown on the road at some later date.
Cailly-sur-Eure would appear to be an original Viking
settlement, but possibly after the Abbey.
All supposition, as is my suggestion that the evidence
suggests the Cailli family was the principal family
there, and the two villages possibly the homes of
younger members - les Caillouets.
We are however getting scraps of the crossword, and
slowly getting the real picture.
Best wishes
Warwick
Sent: Oct 3, 2004
Subject: Warwickshire
Sent: Oct 11, 2004
Subject: Dorset 1500-1600DORSET 1500-1600