Kell-Chat
An Ongoing International Conversation
between Callaway and Kellaway family researchers
discussing family origin, history and genealogy research in England
2003
(this file is VERY large and can be slow to load)

Primary Participants -
Warwick Kellaway (Hamilton, New Zealand)
Bruce Callaway (Sydney, New South Wales)
Bill Callaway (British Columbia)
Sherrill Williams (Unicoi, Tennessee)
Pat Schnurr (Maitland, Florida)
Cary Moore (Birmingham, Alabama)
Bill Piper (Kent, U.K.)

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: May 1, 2003
Subject: Hawisa

Hello All

I have just returned from the FHC tonight, and thought I would continue the stirring.

Please bear in mind that the LDS Church records the Regal families, which obviously are easier to find, if not any barbarians with whom they may have associated. Anyway there is a little more on Hawisa.

Without going into too much detail at this stage, which may take a while, she was evidently the great great granddaughter of Henri 1 King of France (1008-1060), through one of his sons, Hughes, who married A. Vermandois, and a couple of Beaumonts, one of whom married an I. Vermandois . Henri's father was Robert II "the pious", his mother Constance of Toulouse. (At this stage I would presume Robert was born c 970.)

Henri married Anna Agnesa Grand Duchess of Kiev, Ukraine, in 1051. Her father was Grand Duke Yaroslav I "the wise". Her mother was Ingrid (Ingegerda) Olafsdotter, daughter of King Bjornsson, I think of Norway and Sweden. His father King Ericsson was descended, on his mother's side, from Mieszko Poland, I think Duke of Bohemia.

The records get a bit confused here, but Mieszko may have been born about 900.

There are some inaccuracies. In one case they have Hawisa being born c 1160, which could not be, any more than 1110, but elsewhere it is c 1129, which matches. There were two other Hawisas mentioned, the Hawisa born to the first Earl of Leicester in 1110, and Hawisa the nun, born to "our" Hawisa's brother, the second Earl, about 1164 - presumably therefore her neice.

Hawisa seems to have been related to most of the Royal Houses in Europe.

The Ukrainian connection would have probably been through the Viking traders who travelled overland to Constantinople very early. Bohemia of course was virtually on the way. Much of this was occurring not long after our Norsemen friends were settling in northern France.

Later there were Norman rulers in Sicily, and elsewhere. I think they fought for the Byzantine Roman Emperor.

Something to think about?

Merry Christmas

Warwick

From: Pat Schnurr
Sent: Jun 20, 2003
Subject: Gyles Kellwaye

I saw that marr. for Gyles Kellwaye & Margaret Clarke in Stratton 9 Oct. 1569 when we worked Dorset this year.. She is shown as being from Sturminster. (Dorset Marrs. Vol. XV Stratton) another new mention I got on a Giles was

Somerset Visitation Vol. VII, p. 45. Bruton Hundred Milton Church was given to the Canon of Bruton in the late 12th century. By 1535 the Canon was letting land and tithes,. In 1549 the crown granted the whole rectory to Giles Kelway. I had not seen that before.

Pat

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jun 20, 2003
Subject: Gyles Kellwaye

Thank you Pat.

Whether there is any future with Giles or not is not clear - did he have any descendants? - we do not really know. However, from the Dorset perspective, which might involve the IOW at least, it would be great to find some of them.

I note his wife came from Sturminster. Thus it appears that it may have been Giles who was living at Stratton.

A small village, and about as far from Bridport, as Sturminster. Sadly no assistance yet as to whether he was the first Giles, his son, or no close relation.

I did have Giles receiving property in Bridport, Kingston Russell and Chilfrome - now also Milton - between 1548-50. All of this seems to have been acquired through cousin Robert. Both Kingston Russell and Chilfrome are only about 7-8 km from Stratton, although Bruton and Milton (Milton Clevedon?) are some distance away.

Is it possible therefore that Galleass Giles also received property at Stratton, or he, or his descendants lived there?

Was there a manor house there? Can't imagine him living in a farm cottage, although his son may have.

Stratton is only 2-3 km from Forston, which again brings Nicholas into the picture. Is it possible Galleass Giles, being born around 1515, was the father of both Nicholas and Giles of Stratton? I would still love to locate some of the 1570+ christenings from Stratton.

Hopeful ramblings

Best wishes

Warwick

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jun 21, 2003
Subject: Galiasse Giles/Gyles

I have always been intigued by Galiasse Giles/Gyles. Using the 'find' button on Kellchat to remind me of all our references to him, I was firstly struck by Pat's previous listings from the Dorset Tudor Muster Rolls of 1542. Here Gyles Kayleway (Gent) of Bowode provides 1 harness with bow; 1 sheft of arrows. Significantly however, in listing the other C/K's contributions of bows and arrows and the like, it fairly comprehensively locates where in Dorset in 1542 they lived! To save you the trouble of looking them up, I will list them In addition to Gyles there was: Rob Kylwaye of Gyllyngham Nic Calaway of Weymouth Burgess Martin Keyleweye Kt. of Lillington Peter Calwaye of ? Ric Caylewaye of St. Andrew, Piddletown Hundred Edward Cayleway of Piddletown John Calwaye of Wyke Henry Calawey of Weymouth. From Sherrill's notes of May 15 2001 and June 11 2002 A Gyles Kellwye was Churchwarden Charlton Musgrove (borders Stourton Wilts) 1574-1597 A Gyles was buried there in 1574 (?Galliasse Giles). That year a Gyles K/C (son of John Kellwye) was christened there whilst A Giles (? son of Gyles) was christened at Charlton Musgrove in 1594 Not being as familiar with Dorset as you'all, I do not know if this revision of the research will help or hinder, but whilst there was obviously several Giles/Gyles, 'Galiasse' G was obviously a very significant son of Sir John and must have left some significant tracks!

Bruce

From: Pat Schnurr
Sent: Jul 01, 2003
Subject: W. Calewe, Knt. Ledbury, Hereford

At the PRO I picked up a small book entitled "List of Rubbings of Brasses" printed in 1915 by the Dept. of Engraving Illustrations and Design. P. 64 in a section of Academical Costumes 15th century listed
             C 1410 - W. Calewe, Knt. Ledbury, Hereford - V & A 1907 (no plate).

There was no description just the words as I have copied. There were pictures and descriptions of other robes, costumes, etc. I wonder if this means that there is some sort of book or perhaps even a robe in existence -- and at the Victoria and Albert Museum?. I have strolled thru the V & A at least three times and remember a whole section of magnificent costumes in elaborate cases.

The book was indexed and W. Calewe was only name shown. for C/K's.

Is there any way you can check this out?    Just the mention means there is something somewhere.
Pat

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jul 2, 2003
Subject: W. Calewe, Knt. Ledbury, Hereford

Hi Pat

I cannot comment on the book, but Sir William Kelway (presumably also Calewe) is one of those interesting characters from the past, who was of some import, but we cannot really place in context.

Brian Kelway Willoughby sent me the information - Ledbury is not too far from Cheltenham - but I do not know where he actually got his information - probably the Gloucester records.

The memorial brass is in Ledbury Church, Herefordshire, and commemorates Sir William, priest and knight, who died in 1409. (I do see a caption on my picture referring to The Gentleman's Magazine Vol LXIV (1794) p 1162).

He is referred to as chaplain in 1387, and in 1390 as clerk, to be enfoeffed to the manors of Basyngge and Bromlegh in Hampshire. (These people moved around even then)

He is commented on as wearing academic robes, indicating that he may have been a master at the Grammar School. (They actually look more like a monk's cassock to ignorant me - there is a small version in the Chronicles). Also that he may have been a Lollard, which was not a very good idea at the time, as they were regarded as heretics.

Hereford is next to Gloucestershire, and I have wondered whether there were later family members in the area, particularly as there are locations such as Callow Hill, Callow End and Callows Grave not far away.

Whether he came from Herefordshire, Hampshire, or elsewhere, we do not know. I also see some similarity with the William Calwe, Notary Publick of Exeter, who was forced to eat his seals of office in 1384. But he, and his wife, were still apparently in Exeter in 1407. Again a William Calwe, clerk, was paid a yearly rent of 12 marks for a property at Northcraye in Kent in 1388.

The Registers of the Bishops of Exeter between 1395-1450 refer to several Williams under Church Orders at the time - William Kelyowe/Kylyow at St Erme, William Kelwa at Lanothull, Cornwall in 1408. The latter appears to have progressed through five Church Orders at Tavistock. William Kelwe was at Lelant in 1411, Clyst in 1413, and probably Colebrook in 1415.

None of this explains the "knight". Few in the family actually seemed to have used the title, if they could. There was a difference between Sir and sir, which referred to a priest, but this does appear definite as Sir. (I see there was a "sir" Peter Kelyow at Foek in 1450).

William of Ledbury was however a man of some standing.

Regards

Warwick

From: Bruce Callaway

Sent: Jul 2, 2003

Subject: GENUKI St Michael & All Angels Church, Ledbury, Herefordshire

Excellent work Warwick on Sir William of Ledbury. I had established that there is a publication "Victoria and Albert Museum Catalogue of Rubbings of Brasses and Incised Slabs" 2nd Edition 1929,reprinted 1969. Neither the V &A or Oxford University will allow the general public to view the rubbings because of fragility, so nudge nudge, wink wink who knows? One day young Bill may be passing by with his camera to photograph the dear lad. I believe this to be the Church Bill!
( http://www.wishful-thinking.org.uk/genuki/HEF/Ledbury/StMichael3.html )

Bruce

From: Pat Schnurr

Sent: July 2, 2003

Subject: GENUKI St Michael & All Angels Church, Ledbury, Herefordshire

Thanks -- great pictures. I will have to mull this over. Now anyone want to tackle the Kelway C/O quartered with Chudleigh at St. Edmund's Church, Exeter, Devon. Simon Chudleigh - 4th Rector of St. Edmund's in 1442. In Exeter Chuirches by Beatrix Cresswell P. 52 - (c/o not shown ) Got scant info on Chudleign family from this book. What was connection? Pat

From: Warwick Kellaway

Sent: Jul 3, 2003

Subject: GENUKI St Michael & All Angels Church, Ledbury, Herefordshire

Pat

Personally I have no knowledge of any family connections with the Chudleighs. However Exeter is prominent in the Devon records.

I referred to Master William Kelway and his problems in Exeter in 1384. The disturbances were directed against the Bishop and the King, and were subdued by Edward Courtenay, Earl of Devon. William was closely associated with the Bishop, and with wife Marina, is recorded as giving an oratory in 1401.

Chuddleigh is only some 15 km south of Exeter, and it seems there was a substantial Abbey/Church there.

Again from the Bishop's Registers, we had Willemus Keleway at Chudleigh in 1427. Jacobus Keleway was there in 1443, probably going to St Nicholai Exeter in 1444, becoming sir James Kelwa, rector of Dodbroke in 1450. James Keyleway was Custor of Exeter Cathedral.

There is no family link there, but the Chudleighs almost certainly would have come from Chudleigh, and despite the fact that men of the cloth did not normally marry and produce a family (there were some exceptions), undoubtedly they had siblings who did. It seems very likely therefore that there were relationships somewhere between the families.

Sorry no information on them.

Regards

Warwick

From: Pat Schnurr
Sent: Jul 3, 2003
Subject: St. Edmund's

Bruce et al -- Cresswell in the History of Exeter Churches - St. Edmund's gives a great deal of information about the church. She includes a picture of the front which is the third church on the site built after the fire in 1833. On page 30 she is talking about the glass in the various windows. She says "On the north side one window has two quarries of old glass with armorial bearings:--(1) Ermine 3 lions rampant gules --Chudleigh, impaling barry gules and vaire --Beaumont, (2) Chudleigh, impaling argent 2 glaziers irons in saltire sable, between 4 pears pendant or--Kellaway.

She goes on to say the connection of the Chudleigh family and St. Edmund is unknown.

Recovery & Restoration - (at PRO) pub. 1985 page 75 refers to "The Juries of Devonshire" - Chudleigh Parish near Exeter. Devon in 1642 was one of a few counties who responded to the order to fund the war in Ireland by land sales.
The Muster Rolls were held to implement the Royal Commissions - and provoked such hostility that at South Moulton and Cullompton near riots broke out. Parliamentary leaders mentioned were Sir John Northcote and Sir John Bampfield, Sir George Chudleigh and Sir Peter Prideaux. None were to survive in govt. during the 1650's. Also found mention of William Chudleigh in Inqs. P.M. during reign of Henri VIII and Chris Chudleigh during reign of Elizabeth.

Thanks for additional info. Pat

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 4, 2003
Subject: Devon local studies service. Exeter. Royal pardon 1642
Pat, There are many many references to the Chudleigh family extending back to the 13th century. You mentioned this one which I append. Thank you for the description of the COA. I note that it is mentioned in Burke's "Extinct and dormant Baronetage" where the latter also notes that their seat was Asheton, Devon, which property was inherited by one John Chudley(Chudleigh) marrying a Thomasine Prous in 1320. Their son Sir James became the first Baron of Ashton and three generations of Georges followed on. There were many female Chudleigh descendants, and they married many prominent persons of the times. I guess that it was inevitable considering the circles in which the C/K's moved at that time that a marriage would have occured, but I can still not find any reference to it. I will keep looking. Bruce PS Happy 4th July! It is with fear and trepidation that I alert you to the fact that GOOGLE may have been 'spiked' by a ?politician. Try typing in the 'search' weapons of mass destruction, and then hit the 'I feel lucky' button!!!

This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.devon.gov.uk/library/locstudy/1642eng.html.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
The page may have changed since that time. Click here for the current page without highlighting.

1642. England. Monarchs. 1625-1649. Charles I. By the King. A proclamation of His Majesty's grace, favour and pardon to the inhabitants of ... Exceter.- ([London] : [s.n.], [1642])

Westcountry Studies Library: LE 1642/11/09. - Wing C2669

The Civil War split the county and even families down the middle. In Exeter there was considerable sympathy for Parliament. While pardoning the citizens of Exeter for their financial support of the rebellious armies the King excluded Sir George Chudleigh, Sir John Northcote, Sir Samuel Rolle and Sir Nicholas Martyn from this general pardon. The royal coat of arms and the generous layout is used by the printer to good effect in an attempt to reinforce the impression of royal authority.

From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Jul 4, 2003
Subject: Discussion
Hi - it's great to see the discussion going again. I have been busy still typing notes. We got a great deal on the earliest C/Ks following the Conquest, along with Giffard data which helps put it all into perspective. We (the C/ks) rubbed elbows with the "high and mighty" and those associations are evident down through several centuries. In order to have a fruitful discussion of all these things, I am going to send to each of you, on diskette, copies of our 2003 record gathering. I have Pat's - Cary, where are you? Mine is nearly finished - just have Dorset to do, and it is short as so much time was spent unfolding the ancient papers. I have not attempted to deal with the "copies" yet. Most are Latin, but maybe can decipher enough to make sense of them. That will come later, if the sun will ever shine here so I can go on the deck (without threat of rain) where the light is best. Our drought is "zilch." Later today, I will send you a transcription of the will of Richard Keylway of Stoford, Barwick, Somerset. It is interesting. I have also worked on a Chancery case involving Richard dealing with the debts of his father, Thomas. Will take a bit longer to complete this item. Get ready for the fun times ahead. Sherrill

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jul 4, 2003
Subject: Jasper Kellaway

> Hello all again,
>
> I see things are starting to happen. Don't know too much about the weather in other parts, but we have a cold front coming up from Antarctica, and expect a cool weekend. It won't snow here, but it is down to 300m further south, and snowing near Christchurch.
> The system is working well. The ladies offer a question, JWK makes some comments, and the man with the chicken accesses his vast store of reference information and produces great pictorial evidence, and it is all enlarged upon.
> And there is a lot more to come. Look forward to that Norman News.
>
> Have just received my 22 page CFANET Newsletter. As with the other mail this morning, wills et al, there is a lot of digesting to do.
>
> The comments about the 1650s are interesting, as I have just gone back to Googles "Kellaway NZ" and found a reference, on page 25, to the Combs family of Barbados. It seems there is quite a lot of research on Barbados, and it began, in 1656, with the exile of 80 men and a youth, Royalist Exiles, prisoners, "to be disposed of at the best rate in exchange for commodities".
> Probably subsequent to the suppression of the uprising against Cromwell at Salisbury in 1655. Among them was a Jasper Kellaway.
>
> Unfortunately nothing really about him, but there were Jaspers of note in the 16-1700s, the most relevant perhaps being at St Georges Chapel Windsor (remember?), beginning with little Jasper being borne, and baptised, on 7 Sep 1668.
> Charles II had returned as King in 1660 - to Windsor. Jasper may/may not have been the son of Dean's Curate Thomas Kelway, or a Jasper, but Henrietta-Maria (Queen's name?) a daughter of Jasper was
buried there in 1680, and his wife Frances in 1697.
> Did poor old Jasper ever get home - was he compensated - Windsor - or did he remain in Barbados?
>
> The Barbados information seems to come from the Lord Mayors Court of London - Depositions Relating to the Americas 1641-1736 - Peter Wilson Coldham 1980. The reference could also cover other "shipments" to the Americas in that period - Virginia etc?
>
> Keep warm
> Warwick

From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Jul 5, 2003
Subject: Jasper Kellaway
> I found the following in Peculiars of the Dean & Chapter of Sarum:
> Kelleway, Jasper senr. of Sarum & Hester Smith of the Close, Sarum Cathedral (marriage); bondsman,
> Jasper Kelwaye junr.. 5 April 1640.

> --- Schnurr200 at aol.com wrote:
> > If the uprising was in Salisbury -- how about this picked up this year.
> This must be a second marriage, and Pat's register listings are for Jasper, junr.???
> >
> > "Salisbury Cathedral Bapts. and Burials bwt 1564 - 1837 (Wilts.)
> >
> > 1635 - Elizabeth dau. of Jasper Kellaway and Honor - buried April 5, 1641 - Jasper Kellaway s/Jasper and Ester bapt. Dec. 12, 1641 - Jasper s/ Jasper and Ester buried.
> >
> > No others listed but there were apparently others living right there. Pat

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: July 5, 2003
Subject: COA
Russ, I assume you want the K/C COA and not the COA of Sir John of Rockbourne, so attach the former in gif. but can also supply it in BMP format. The description is Argent (silver) two grozing irons in saltire (crossed) Sable (black) between four pears vert (green) engrailed Sable (bordered by a black scalloping). Look forward to getting the gene project off the ground. Let me know what I can do to help. Happy 4th July Bruce

From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Jul 5, 2003
Subject: COA

If we are going to "start" to "begin" thinking about a > DNA project, we need to "start thinking." I have subscribed to this e-journal for some time now. Go to their website and explore. By the way, Bruce, Russ wants a copy of the "nippers and pears" COA - just the shield without the "chicken" or tiger or whatever else sits atop. He would want the proper colors (tinctures). Do we have such a thing lying around?
Russ, I received the "talk to it" software. Looks interesting. I'll try to install and give it a try
shortly.
Sherrill

From: Pat Schnurr

Sent: Jul 15, 2003

Subject: Bishop Kellewe's Seals

While at the PRO I spent some time looking at a book entitled "Ecclesiastical Seals in Durham Treasury" Published by Greenville and Blair 1917-18. I copied a great deal of it and it is included in the copies with my notes sent to Sherrill and Cary. However, the poor old machine at the PRO copied everything so faintly it is hardly readable - or else they were trying to save on the print ink. I have copied this so thought maybe you all might be interested.

Bishop Kellewe - Seal No. 3127 - Oval, 3 l/2 x 2". The Bishop is standing on a pedestal in a niche. With canopy of tabernacle work, vested in alb, stole, dalmatic, with orphreys, chasable and amice. He wears an embroidered mitre, his right hand blesses, his left with maniple holds the crozier. In a smaller niche on the dexter is the figure of St. Cuthbert in mass vestments and mitre and holding the head of St. Oswald, in a niche on the sinister side is the crowned figure of St. Oswald with sceptre. Each of these figures stands on the head of a monster. Above the centre canopy are the figures III.

A footnote below says - Wwith this seal the change begun on the seal of Bishop Farnham is completed and we have the Bishop with his attendant Saints forming one group within the architectural setting. The absence of armorial decoration is probably accounted for by the lowly origin of the Bishop. The Crook of the Crozier is more ornate than the previous seals which have shown only a plain curve quite free from ornament. The Roman numeral III above the canopy denotes that he was the third Richard, Bishop of Durham. His Register has been printed in four volumes entitled Registrum Palatinum Denulmense in the Roll Series edited by Sir Thomas D. Hardy. His will is printed in Wills and Invents No. 21

A second seal, oval 2 l/1" x 1 3/5" is described as Our Lady standing with the child Christ under a trefoiled canopy. On the dexter side is the head of St. Oswald, on the sinister, the head of St. Cuthbert. Beneath, the Bishop in mass vestments is praying. The field is beautifully diapered.

A third seal - No. 3128 is Oval 1 3/4" x l l/3 ". The Annunciation In front of the Archangel Gabriel is a scroll upon which Ave M. Above the head of the Blessed Virgin are clouds from which descends the Holy Dove with nimbus. Beneath, the Bishop kneeling, prays. I attempted to take pictures of the seals but they were so faint and so small that they just resemble blobs.

In addition to the information on the seals of the Bishops there was a section entitled Private Seals -- there were many Kellewe seals - all of which appear to belong to the Bishop's extended family.

One which I thought was interesting --now that Bruce has the Chicken on his head C/O perhaps we should all get seals. Seal No. 1478 - Kellawe, Peter of ---A.D. 1292-95 Oval 7/8" x 3/4"
An ape, with an owl seated on its right paw, riding on an ass (Sounds familiar)

Anybody seen this? Pat

From: Warwick Kellaway

Sent: Jul 15, 2003
Subject: Bishop Kellewe's Seals

Great Pat

I had seen the official arms of the Bishop of Durham, but they appeared to be a standard form, probably from many years later, but no evidence of any seals. Richard's Register and Will are also awaiting access somewhere.

The seals sound very ecclesiastical, except for Peter's which is unusual - owls, apes, asses? Peter who died in 1313, was at different times referred to as a vicar, rector, and magistrate/clerk.

(If Bruce has the chook, maybe I should take the ass - falling off.)

Note the comment about "lowly origin". We have a little information about his parentage - being the son of Thomas and Agnes - and descended from a prominent local family - whatever that means. I did get a little more on him, and his rellies, from the Register of Bishop Bek 1283-1311, his predecessor. This indicated some family importance between 1285-1310, including a William in 1286 and 1292, who appears to have been recorded earlier in 1269 and 1272 at Gloucester. Richard's brother Patrick was the senior knight in Durham, and presumably commanded the troops of the Bishop in Durham, and Bannockburn. (William may be the key, as he received a years protection from Henry III in 1269, and could have been Richard's brother).

There is also information about an Alexander, possibly Richard's uncle, and his son Henry, in Durham between 1260-83. Aimeric and his wife Joan were also referred to in 1283.

(Coincidentally perhaps, there was an Alexander de Caillouet, huntsman of Robert II of Meulan, who held the fiefdom of Caillouet in France about the same time. Cross Channel connections were still very strong at that time.)

There is really little available on his earlier family - as with all the others - but family members were prominent considerably before Richard became Bishop in 1311. His father Thomas must have been born about 1230, but whether in Durham, or perhaps more likely further south, we do not know. Possibly Richard was a dominant local churchman, but it is more likely he had important connections in London. It was a powerful, largely temporal, position - the Bishop had his own standing army - to restrain the Scots. No King, not even the weak Edward II, would permit a potential problem to become Bishop. I think there must have been connections at Court somewhere.

Edward I, the Hammer of the Scots, had been thrashing them, although they got their own back later - including Bannockburn in 1314, during Richard's reign as Bishop. It may be the family was involved with Edward during the earlier period - remember the pear trees.

(Incidentally that Holywood film about William Wallace, Baseheart or something, was totally historically incorrect - Wallace was executed by Edward I, not Edward II, long before most of that shown occurred - his girlfriend, Edward II's Queen, was a baby when Wallace died. Wallace did manage to defeat the English in 1297, but Edward I, using the famous Welsh longbowmen for the first time, more than returned the complement the next year. He was on the run until his capture in 1305.)

Got a bit carried away there,. but we are getting more and more of those jigsaw pieces.

Back to the ass, or bed.

Best wishes

Warwick

From: Pat Schnurr

Sent: Jul 17, 2003

Subject: Durham Seals

Well -- Sherrill -- we can chew on this for awhile. we will need an index of Durham Kellawe's just to sort them out. Warwick -- Poor Richard did have a hard time with Edward II. He didn't want him as Bishop in the first place. Wanted "favorite" - He did furnish 1,500 troops for Bannockburn and his brother Patrick led them. It is estimated that they had almost 100,000 troops there against 30,000 Scots. Said "the King did not have the interest of the people with him". In Vol. I History of Durham - footnote says "In the Bodleian Library the MSS - original register of Bishop Kellow, Bishop of Durham - a folio of inestimable wealth. Contains a great no. of charters, commissions, etc. issued or made by this prelate together with other writs sent in the bishopric by K. - the register was borrowed out of the cursitor's office by an agent of Lord Oxford to produce evidence relating to some action of Northumberland and that an accountable receipt was given for them which is remaining in the office".

Also, in my stuff is copy of will Sherrill found in 2000. Mentions brother Patrick and 100 lbs. he left to church. Not much else. Pat

From: Warwick Kellaway

Sent: Jul 18, 2003

Subject: Durham Seals

Pat

There is a lot coming forth about the Durham C/Klan. Some more on Richard too - seemed to recall a will.

It is fascinating that there are so many references that have survived up there. They were even into Coalmining. A Butcher's Shop?

Sorting out who is who, is a little more difficult. If you look at the original Chronicles, there are a number of them there, obtained from other sources. It would still take some time to rationalise them. Locations are another interesting field - some names remain much the same - others don't.

The last sending of "Private Seals" takes us back to Thomas, Bishop Richard's father in 1256, Alexander and Mermedonia also in the mid 1200s, Peter in 1295-97, Emeric in 1303, Patrick in 1313, and William between 1310 and 1318 at least, plus a number of ladies, who were evidently entitled to have their own seals.

While I still suspect a family link with Thomas and perhaps Alexander, both probably born around 1230, quite likely the first William, if brother of Bishop Richard and therefore also son of Thomas, there do not seem to be any obvious links later.

The gradual name change, from Kellawe to Kellow is evident in the seals, while I am fairly certain that the present day village of Kelloe near Durham is another derivation - probably from Magna (greater) Kellawe. There is a Church there, and I wonder if it is the Parva (smaller) Kellawe Church. Unfortunately I do not know the area at all. When in the region 13 years ago we visited Durham Cathedral only, at night on the way south, knowing nothing at the time of any family connections (co-incidence?).

(With regard to the names, are the Kellaway and Kellawey references correct? - if so this would be by far the first use of the spelling so common today.)

I see Elias de Galuwaye and Elias le Galeway in 1348 and 1350 (note the de and le). I had an Elias Kellawe in 1348 - same man?

(I won't push it, but what about those Scottish Galloways?)

One interesting aspect is the use of "double" de/s - with the family name followed by the place of residence - unusual to have it that way. With a 1380 seal there were several de Kellawe witnesses - clearly residents, not family.

Lawrence de Seton, I am fairly sure is Lawrence de Kellawe. He may have been the son of Adam.

There is some suggestion of a lack of heirs, which may explain the later virtual disappearance of the family up there. I did have John and Alice the children of John Kellaw in 1408. John jnr died in 1410, but Alice married John Lambton before dying in 1439. Also that William de Kellaw held the manor of Harebarowes, and that his daughter and heiress Joanne married John Fossour before 1417. Joanna, if the same lady, was about 80 when she died about 1457. That William, and there were a number of them, would have been born about 1350. The 1378-87 Seals would probably relate to him, as William de Kellawe/Kellaway(?) de Herbarowes, not William de Kellawe de Lomley (two de/s), and his son Robert.

Bishop Richard himself certainly had a rough time. He had to settle Bishop Bek's debts before he could assume the Bishopric in 1311, and the next year was ordered to provide food (including nearly 1000 animals) for what must have been the entire Royal Household, then staying at Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Following the defeat at Bannockburn in 1314, he had to arrange a huge settlement to prevent the Scots attacking Durham - no doubt a lot of his and the family money.

I think we can assume that the family had some relationship with Edward I, but the weak Edward II did not like him. It was Edward II's army, badly led and foolishly not using the Welsh longbowmen, that failed at Bannockburn. His son Edward III later rectified the matter. (Funny how the Scottish victories are "remembered", and their losses ignored) The longbowmen could fire six arrows a minute at long range - a medieval machine gun - as the French soon found out.

Fun isn't it.

Best wishes

Warwick

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 18, 2003
Subject: Introduction to Medieval Seals

C'mon you guys! Here I am stumbling along with Coats of Arms and now y'all are onto seals. Lordy me! following is like holding onto the tail of a tiger (Rampant of course!) Bruce

See interesting information on Seals at the University of Notre Dame

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 19, 2003
Subject: Kellawe

Whilst we are off and running with the Kellawe's, and I know that Warwick has mentioned Walter de Kellewe as a Carmelite Friar in Yorkshire c.1348 (C/K Chronicles page 14), I have uncovered a bit more detail. See attached. With reference to the Durham seals, y'all have aroused my interest! I have noted on the University of Durhams website a listing of Greenwell and Blairs catalogue. I believe that it is possible to do some family groupings by the depictions on the seals. For example Cecilia Kellawe identified as the wife of Patrick in 1330 displays a "Stag at Speed" whereas by 1336 she has a "Lion Rampant" with ? her image above. If indeed this is an image of Cecilia, it must be one of the earliest images of a C/K in captivity! You will note that her husband Patrick (S'Patrich de Kellawe AD1313) also has the lion rampant, as do a number of the others listed. One lion rampant is described as rude (as Pat has noted). As there is no actual photograph of this particular seal, the mind boggles! Richard Kellawe 1320 (S'Ricardi D'Kellav) has a lion rampant. One must assume by the dates that other family members were entitled to use a similar seal. I shall continue my investigations into medieval beeswax!
Bruce

Patrick Kellawe Seal Cecilia Kellawe Seal

Read: British Province of Carmelite Friars

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 19, 2003
Subject: Medieval Seals on-line

Prof. D. W. Rollason Department of History, University of Durham.

Dear Prof. Rollason,

I note your appeal through the PRO for support for Medieval Seals on-line. As this would be a most valuable genealogical resource that could become much used throughout the world, I would like to record my personal support for the initiative.

Just a few months ago researchers from the Callaway Family Association of America discovered the Greenwell and Blairs Catalogue whilst on a visit to the U.K. I note that the University of Durham has an excellent website which displays the seals in the Catalogue. A number of KELLAWE seals are listed.

The Kellaways and the Callaways (with variant spellings), having joined forces in genealogical research and having established a common origin to the names are well advanced in medieval connections. You will be aware of Richard de Kellawe, Bishop of Durham 1311-1316. Having established linkages to the Bishop whose life is recorded in much detail, our researchers were understandably excited to find the seals of others of the name bearing the Lion rampant which features prominently in the Bishop's COA. We are attempting to place these folk.

Obviously, for researchers to have access to seals on-line from other areas of the U.K. particularly through the resources of the PRO would be a most valuable and widely used facility. It has our enthusiastic support.
Yours Sincerely,
Dr. Bruce C. Callaway
Sydney, Australia

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jul 20, 2003
Subject: Kellawe

Bruce Marvellous backup again. Some fascinating seals - can't recognise the lady's face however. These seals could prove to be more valuable than the COA we were scratching with. I know I virtually gave up looking for the family arms among the few accessible from that time.

Probably the Durham c/klan were a branch, which became more separated with time, but that lion rampant, rude or not, is interesting. The 1320 Richard, who presumably died in 1343, left a widow Agnes, son William (born 1332), and could well have been the son of the early William, or maybe Patrick. Patrick and Cecilia anyway had the lion. Presumably Magistrate William of 1343 was the father of 1342 William Jnr, also of one (Chaplain) Nicholas mentioned in 1354, 1360 and 1370. Simon was the father of the other. A third part of the manor of Magna Kellow was mentioned then. Curiously Henry in 1345, with children John and Elizabeth, had a third part of the manor - was it shared between three brothers? - perhaps the sons of Alexander, as Henry was his son. If so, presuming Alexander and Thomas were brothers, Alexander was perhaps the elder, and originally held the manor, which was divided on his death - between sons Henry, 1320 Richard, and William? Where does Simon fit?

It seems possible that Bishop Richard may also have used the big pussy cat seal, which commonly indicated a person or family of considerable import - not necessarily the lowly status quoted elsewhere. If they all had the lion, we have a family. I had suspected that Bishop Richard, Patrick and the early William were brothers, the others cousins. (Someone needs to have a Mensa level to work it out, or maybe a special computer programme).

The real question may be - just who were Thomas and Alexander? And when was Magna Kellawe founded. Earlier researchers were apparently just as confused about spelling variations as we were. I still wonder how Kellawe became Kellaw or Kelloe - phonetics don't seem to work - or did they use a different language up there? Are they Geordies - but that is at Newcastle?

I'm sure there will be more in the mail. Best wishes Hopalong PS It is due to be -2C here tonight.

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 20, 2003
Subject: seals of Bishop Richard de Kellewe

I believe we now have an image of a C/K older than Cecilia! I know that Pat has already given descriptions of these seals of Bishop Richard de Kellewe (1311-1316), so I will paraphrase. The first seal shows Bishop Richard standing on a pedestal. On the left side is St. Cuthbert holding the head of St. Oswald. Why he is doing this is a mystery, because a non-decapitated robed figure of St. Oswald holding a sceptre appears on the right! Both Saints stand on the head of a monster.

The second seal shows Our Lady with the child Christ. Beneath her is our Bishop Richard praying. Now we have on the left and right sides the heads of both Saints sans body!

Just a little more to add to page 14 of Warwick's Chronicles. In 1366 Isabella, widow of William de Kellawe of Lumley, granted her manor of Whittonstall and two parts of the manor's demense to the de Menyvilles. The grant in the possession of the Uni. of Durham indicates that she had inherited the manor from her Father Robert Darrayns.The Darrayns were very prominent around Durham. The manor is not now extant as shown by the aerial photograph attached, but is subject to a current archeological dig.

Quite a bit more the DK's (Durham K's) but will forward later.
Bruce Callaway
Sydney, Australia

Manor Whittonstall Richard Bishop Durham Seal Richard's other seal

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 25, 2003
Subject: COA in Sherbourne

Thank you so much for your disc which arrived this afternoon. Also for the copy of Greenwell & Blair which has much more detail on the seals than is available on the University of Durham's website. It gives relationships and references which in due course will tie up the medieval C/K's of the north, and add a little to what Warwick has already garnered.

You ask, Sherrill, about the COA in Sherbourne. I think that I have this on file complete with the mullet (rawl of the spur) denoting a third son. Unfortunately the College of Arms only has indexes dating back to 1530. From that time on they sent out Heralds in visitations to record and verify COA's. Prior to the College of Arms, whilst Coats were well established they were preceded by blazons (Fowl on head) and preceded again by Seals, you have a gap of some 400 years before COA's became regulated.

It is clear that the C/K's pears and glaziers nippers preceded even the Worshipful Colleges. More particularly the Worshipful Company involved with stained and other glass.It is also clear that the C/K's had their pears and glaziers nippers before the College of Arms came into effect.Leaving aside the pears, the glaziers nippers(syn.grozing irons) are an ancient device. They are described by Theophilus in the year 1000 as "grosarium ferrum". Somewhere along the line we picked them up.

Until such time as we can establish this, I see little hope of finding out who the third son was and of whom. Frustrating isn't it? Of what there is no doubt is the fact that an ancient C/K was involved with glass, but whom?
Bruce Callaway
Sydney, Australia

Sherbourne nippers banner

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jul 27, 2003
Subject: Callaway and a few Roberts and Giffards

Sherrill

The connection with Frank Holden looks promising, particularly if we can glean a little more about the Stafford Barton/ Dolton area. Hope to hear more.

I am finding your latest massive sending very interesting in many respects, but have a long way to go to digest it.

Before making comment in detail however I would like to refer back to Robert II of Wards and Liveries fame. (5 July message - just after my mishap). I agree we are now coming to accept that he was closely related to the Rockborne Knights, even if there is no factual evidence available. Also that he was almost certainly the son of Robert I of New Sarum.

Perhaps however we need to consider the fact that, if he was Robert I's son, and born in 1497, Robert I must have been born around 1470-75.

As Sir John was also apparently born around 1470, we should perhaps see Robert I as a brother of Sir John, and son of the first Sir William, rather than his son. The fact that neither Robert is in the Pedigrees could be explained by Robert I being born out of wedlock, either before William married, or from some liaison later.

Francis and Ambrose could not have been Robert II's first cousins, as they were too young, but still "cousins". Dame Ann would have been more like a niece, by marriage.

Sorry to spread more confusion, but we also have that elusive Thomas, born in 1476, with sons Robert and William, born presumably about the same time as Robert II. Robert I could have been Thomas's brother - there seemed no problem having two sons, or daughters, with the same name at that time. That family was associated with the Gawens - John later marrying Jane Gawen, Alice marrying William Gawen. There also do not appear to have been any Roberts among the later descendants of the Knights.

Again there is a certain amount of wooliness over Thomas, who I think was possibly the son of another Thomas, the son of William of Sherborne, and half brother to the first Sir William. (There are two Thomases identifiable in the Pedigrees as the sons of old William of Sherborne - different mothers - but neither could have been born in 1476, if William died in 1469.) With all this uncertainty, the Pedigrees could have missed Robert I somewhere.

I still see Robert II's main association with the Rockborne Knights as being social/political, and perhaps educational - Sir John and Sir William presumably introduced him at Court. His father should have been able to see him educated in Law, although again the first Sir William (if his grandfather) could have arranged that.

Comments?

I was intrigued by the Giffard Tree, and the huge amount of information accompanying them. At first was puzzled as to how John le Calewe could possibly be seen as an heir to the Giffard properties, when there were Giffard male heirs available, but the copious notes probably explain that it was a "convenience" at the time.

The Tree detail is very interesting, although we need to look closely at the C/K line of descent, as I still think they missed a John. (Bertha's son Elias must have been born about/before 1200, his son John about 1230, the "missing" John, who probably left the 1308 will, about 1260, then the Giffard Inheritance John, who died in 1336.)

In the Giffards there is also a problem, as Elias Giffard IV is said to have been a minor in 1201-2 (born at the latest in 1181). Unlikely, if his younger sister Bertha was the mother of naughty Matilda, who helped murder her husband about 1220, and had a daughter of presumably teenage at the time. Matilda would have been born probably around 1190, Bertha around 1165. Elias IV's father Elias III was said to be dead before 1190. Unless the Tree has mistakenly put Bertha as younger than Elias, when she was at least 15 years older, Elias IV would have to have been born around 1160. (Don't think the 1220 murder date is too far out)

(Unless there are errors, they could have missed a generation in both families.)

Matilda's problem could be suitable for the Newsletter, Donna. Makes a good story.

Must go and do some more reading, and stirring.
Best wishes Warwick

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 28, 2003
Subject: Kittric Nether Compton Parish Church, Dorset

Absolutely fascinated by the History of Ashmore and the Ashmore Registers. Particularly the Penruddock's Rising and the attempt to roast the twins 'naked in a dripping-pan before the fire'! This has just got to be a great story for Donna's newsletter!

Importantly however if we can ever sort out the Patrons and the Rectors of Nether Compton, Ashmore and Sutton Bingham, we will be a long way forward in explaining the K/C alias as Clarke and the association of these both with Sherborne and Rockbourne, but Wow! is it complicated.

Just scanning your English research at the moment on the disc, but before we get to far away from COA's, crests and seals, I note that we really should be paying more attention to the crests. You quote Fairburne's "Book of Crests" wherein the K/C's of Hampshire and Sherborne Dorset have their Grozing irons and pears crested by a silver chook, (chicken) combed, wattled, beaked and spurred in blue. Whereas the K/C's of Devon and the Stowfords have either a black tiger (passant and regardant) or a silver barnacle bird cresting their nippers and pears. More later Bruce

See information from Dorset at this web site: http://www.swuklink.com/BAAAGBYS.php

From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Jul 29, 2003
Subject: Robert I, crests etc.

Thanks, Warwick. I do agree that Robert I would more likely be a brother of Sir John of Rockborne. I mis-spoke in saying he was son of Sir John. However, I don't think Robert W & L was "illegitimate" but was, instead, the only son of the marriage of Robert I to Alice Gover (the widow Byfleet).

Robert I remains somewhat a "mystery man" even tho' we know he was a Mayor of Salisbury as well as briefly an MP. His "projected" dates of birth and death are not beside me as I write, but he may not have been long married to the widow Byfleet before his death. Robert I seems to have been a "merchant" but he may have inherited that position by his marriage to Alice, as I think I have read that John Byfleet was a merchant in Salisbury. Alice's son, Thomas Byfleet, as suggested on the pedigree chart, was her heir. Thomas Byfleet is mentioned in the Chancery Case involving Alice Keilway and William Dean, also suggesting his heirship and interest in the mercantile business in Salisbury.

Another clue to the relationship to the Rockborne family is found in one of the many chancery cases involving the property. In one, I think involving Lady Anne's joynture in the property, reference is made to "Mr. Robert Callaway" (or however spelled). Whether this is Robert I or Robert W & L will need to be checked on. I have transcribed this chancery case, but not typed it which I must do, to determine the time perspective, etc. Nevertheless, here is one instance of a Robert's connection to Rockborne manor.

I still feel that Robert W & L has a "full blood relationship" to the Rockborne family. Nothing he does, via his will, or other conveyances, ever involves the Sherborne family. His allegiance seems totally toward the Rockbornes. A number of the leaseholders of the Rockborne family's properties are also found around Salisbury as public officials, etc. And then, there is the Webb family mystery.

Robert W & L certainly had influence to get his "foot in the door" with the Crown of the period, and no doubt the influence came from the Rockborne family, the only ones who seemingly had the influence. But Robert W& L's relationship to the family should have been the reason he advanced so far. He certainly recognized this as shown by his generosity towards the Rockborne family in his will.

Of course the Rockbornes and the Sherbornes have common relationships at some point in time. Our problem with the generations of the Sherborne family is causing confusion. It would also be helpful if we could learn to whom, and when, the first COA was awarded. The Sherborne family, the Rockborne family, and John of Cullompton, all shared the same "pears & glaziers' snippers" COA, as well as the C/K-Stoffords (Staffords). The fragment of the arms in St. Catherine's chapel, said to be a "quarter" of arms, has the mullet (3rd son), thus my question - third son of whom? - and with what family was it "quartered"?? How can we begin to answer the question of the common ancestor of the Sherbornes, Rockbornes, Staffords & John of Cullompton?

Awaiting some brilliant answers. Sherrill

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jul 29, 2003
Subject: Robert I, crests etc

No brilliant answers Sherrill, but I am sure we are getting closer.

My reference to illegitimacy was meant for Robert I. Robert W&L is no problem if we assume he was his son.

I don't myself have any problem with Robert I being the son of Thomas of Sherborne/Whitparish or Sir William, both being the sons of William of Sherborne - but would still like to know.

If he spent most of his long life associating with the Rockborne family, he would consider those cousins ahead of the other family. The Rockbornes would obviously find him very useful in legal matters. Incidentally he did apparently live for some time at Lillington House, and was deeply involved with the Sherborne family squabbles over Bapton with the Estcourts. Bapton and Whitparish in Wiltshire are as close to Salisbury, as Rockborne.

You mention John of Cullompton again. Another enigma. I had always presumed he was a Dolton descendant, and possibly was. But he definitely related to Sherborne Abbey. The Abbey may well have dominated family interests in those days. (As we still have a problem with 1476 Thomas, is it possible that his family was missed in the Pedigrees altogether, and John was Thomas's brother?)

(To recant my story there, William of Sherborne purportedly had two sons named Thomas - one in each family - the elder, born c1430-40, was said to have produced sons Robert of Sherborne and William of Stalbridge. But they would seem to have been the sons of the Thomas born in 1476. There was a lot of confusion over the early Williams and Thomases, and possibly 1476 Thomas was the son of the earlier Thomas - two Thomases, father and son. No evidence, but the dates otherwise don't match up.)

Must have a look again at the twins in the frying pan Bruce.

The relationship of the geographically separated families around 1500 is probably well illustrated by the COA crests. All used the basic shield, but the chook was clear with the dominant Rockborne family, also the Sherborne/Wiltshire people, while the Dolton/Devon lot had a tiger or barnacle bird. Those Devon variations are interesting, and could indicate two families, one more closely related to Sherborne.

It had been said that, while the two Devon/Dorset families had separated early, they intermarried later. I had noted that Edmund moved from Kayleways in Wiltshire to Chawleigh near Dolton in Devon about 1395, and suspect that there were later several families in the area.

(The coupling of the recognised pear shield with the leopards face shield at Dolton Church very likely gives us an earlier COA, used at least in Devon).

My theory remains that the accepted family arms came from the stained glass in the rebuilt Sherborne Abbey, and would probably date from somewhere around the time of rebuilding, c1440-75. Who they were presented to is the question. First assumption would be the C/K who was involved with the reconstruction/reglazing. However, as William was knighted in 1501, he could have chosen the arms then, either because of the importance of the stained glass work, or because he had actually been in charge of the artisans. (The glass would have been installed late, and he was just old enough).

Best wishes

Warwick

PS My mail to Michael Cayley bounces back - has he a new address (Cayley at cix.co.uk)?

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 29, 2003
Subject: Robert I, crests etc

I have been closely following The Sherbourne/Rockbourne disccusion, and concur that Robert W&L is not only a common link but closely related to both families. I believe that Robert 1 the mayor was his daddy, and I have no difficulty placing Robert 1 as a grandson of William of Sherbourne.

I have a problem with this Warwick. I believe the arms to be much older than this which brings me to page 9 & 10 of your Chronicles and Muxbeare. I have confirmed that in 1242 William Calleway or Kelloway held one fee in Mukelbere and Sweteton 'of the honor of Gloucester' (Fees,p780). The manor (in Halberton parish) was not sold by the family until the very late 1500's therefore was a family nest for a much longer period than either Sherbourne or Rockbourne. This then possibly makes the Dolton arms of considerable interest.

I thought that the appearance of the 'onion bulbs' between the crossed glaziers nippers a late aberration. I now have reason to believe that they preceded the pears which were adopted some time later as a more suitable device as the family gained influence at Court. (No-where do onion, garlic or daffodil bulbs appear as a device in Britain or the continent {except in Wales} whereas pears were reasonably fashionable).

Which brings me to the glaziers nippers. I believe them to be possessed by the family in the 13th or 14th century when the family was associated with (yet to be discovered) glass manufacture. I believe that we may be able to place William of 1242 as a progenitor of the Sherbourners and the Rockbourners! Admittedly this does not help with Sherrill's 'fishy' third son!

Bruce

Dolton

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 3, 2003
Subject: Cailly

Sherrill,

You really have thrown down the gauntlet! Your excellent reply to Isaac D. Callaway in the current Newsletter was read with much interest. Firstly let me say that after the Monmouth Rebellion most of the non politically correct were still being transported to the Caribbean and Virginia. Australia began receiving this 'trash' (may the Lord preserve me as Dawn's ancestor was one of them!) in 1788.The American Revolutionary War necessitated England finding an alternative 'dumping' ground. I concur that Pete was a refugee from Cromwell and Joe probably from the failed Monmouth Rebellion.

I really still do think that Joseph was a hang over from the association of the diminishing fortunes of the C/K's and the end of the Muxbere/Sherbourne/Rockbourne 'dynasty' and the entry of Anthony Ashley Cooper, the beneficial owner of Rockbourne and a member of the Virginia Company. The C/K's although bankrupt still had their 'ear to the ground'. Fortunes were being made in the New World. But who knows?

What I feel with trepidation that I must take issue with is your statement that the C/K name had its origin with de Cailly. It must surely draw a long bow (despite local accents) to get Cailly to Callewe, much less to Callaway. I have examined most of the established experts who published works over the past 200 years, and they are virtually unanimous that Cailly and Callaway have different origins. Admittedly both originated from Normandy which figures. BUT Phillipe de Caillouet was on the scene in Gloucestershire 45 years after the Norman conquest.

It is proven that the Caillouets and the de Caillys married into the Giffard family. There is no doubt that the Caillys became Kellys, and that there were distinct Kellewe, Kellaway/Callawe families. I applaud your latest tack to identify properties rather than spellings of the surname, but there is no way that I can see anything common to the de Caillys and the C/K's. Even 'our' Caley has dropped out of the loop. I remain as always willing to be convinced!

Bruce Callaway
Sydney, Australia

From: Pat Schnurr
Sent: Aug 3, 2003
Subject: Joseph Callaway, Clifton Maybanke

Hi Bruce -- we know that Anne Stroud hid Joseph after the battle of Sedgefield. He had apparently been with Monmouth entourage the night before the battle at the Stroud Manor. He was forty years old. We know that he was listed as being from Clifton Maybanke and I found his birth date in Bradford Abbas I spent several days doing circles in the Lillington - Sherborne area trying to find more on him. Could not locate a marriage date or any children. His parents Martin and Ursula show no brothers or sisters for him. Went up to North Petherton and to Yeovil looking for answers -- nothing. However, he was hanged at Somerton, quartered and his head put on a pike so he definitely did not come. to Va. My thought is that he did have children and possibly a son named Joseph who was taken out of the country - and to Virginia. In our Monmouth stuff it is mentioned that lots of the men escaped - many going up to Bristol and taking boats - paying to hide their identities. We made the same search around Exeter trying to find the Thomas K. - Davy link. Did you see my notes about the battle at Lyme Regis -- and the mention of Colway Field and Colway house. I thought that was interesting since Thomas was killed at Lyme Will we ever know. It is like hitting your head against a brick wall -- several times. Pat.

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 18, 2003
Subject: Joan versus Joanna and the Agneses

Sorry about my vertiginous 'doodling'. Had a good sleep, taken Sherrill's advice and believe that progress has been made.

Studying the inq.PM for Ellis of Bapton Nov.14 1506 to-gether with Sherrill's notes on the Pomeroys dated 15 July 2001 (Thank goodness for Kellchat) it became clear that Henry Barrett's wife Joan/Joanne/Anna was a Camell of Fittleford Dorset.Their daughter was JANE(Joanna) Barrett who became the first wife of William K/C of Sherbourne.

After Henry Barrett's death Joan married Henry de la Pomeroy but did not bear him any children. Henry however secondly married an Alice Raleigh of Fardell, Devon and their second son Thomas Pomery (of Berry Pomeroy) married Agnes K/C who inherited Cheriton Fitzpaine from her dad John who died in 1478. (see attached)

Agnes K/C's dad John was the son of William K/C of Sherbourne, and you will see by the attached that she had an auntie Agnes/Alice the daughter of William of Sherborne. Now all this is 'set in concrete' and I will have to have some fairly persuasive arguments to shift me. There are at least two more Agnes/Alices in the family which I will sort, one of which was the daughter of Robert K/C of New Sarum, but being on relatively good terms with my program (it hasn't shouted at me lately), I am deferring the imput of any Roberts!

Bruce

See these links: Joanne and Joanna Barrett, and The Pomeroys

From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 20, 2003
Subject: figuring out the Pomeroy connection

Bruce, thank you, thank you, thank you for figuring out the Pomeroy connection. I had fretted over that for a long time. It was a classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees. The small C/K lineage inserted in the Pomeroy pedigree [Visitations of co. Devon] was recited from the Inq.p.m. of Katherine Huddesfield. She was a d/o Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham and widow of Thomas Rogers when she married Sir Seintclere Pomeroy (d. May 1471). Katherine later married Sir William Huddesfield who predeceased her. She died Jan 1515 at Shillingford. She had no children by Sir Seintclere Pomeroy or Sir Huddesfield. Her heir was her son, George Rogers. Katherine was apparently acquainted with our C/Ks, thus we continue to have the Courtenay connection around the fringes.

As the result of a "google" search, no one seems to know who the widow of Roger de Ledred was, not even that her name was "Joan." We now know that to be a fact. Actually "they" say that Roger Ledred was born c1400 (s/o Henry Ledred & Amy Downe) and died before 1448. Roger's daughter, Alice Ledred, was born c1425 and died 18 May 1514 at Somerton, Somerset. She married William Strode/Stroud (born c1420; died 14 Sept 1499 at Somerton, Somerset).

In view of all the above "facts," I am now willing to venture that Joan, widow of Roger Ledred, married William K. (d. 1469), but was probably a second wife, and probably not mother to any of his children.

I am now further willing to believe that William, son of William (d. 1469) is the one married to Joan Barret. Their granddaughter, Agnes K. married Thomas Pomeroy. The legend written beneath the name "Thomas Pomeroy" on the Pomeroy pedigree suggests that Agnes' father, John K., gave them "Cheriton Fitzpaine" &c. on 20 Sep. 1478 [could that be the date of their marriage?]. I am curious as to what the &c. property included. Attempting to date this Pomeroy connection, the pedigree shows that Thomas Pomeroy was the 3rd son. His brother, Sir Seintclere, was 1st son, who died May 1471 without issue. His heir was brother Richard Pomeroy, the 2nd son who was age 30 in May 1471, thus born c1441. Therefore we can judge that Thomas Pomeroy who married Agnes K. was born not long afterwards, say around 1443.

Another matter - the significance of the John Chidyock/Chidiock record could derive from the fact that a son of Sir Humphrey Stafford ("silver hand") & his wife, Elizabeth Maltravers, named William Humphreys [killed at Sevenoaks, 1450] married Katherine, a daughter of Sir John Chidiock. Katherine remarried (who?) according to the pedigree of Humphrey Stafford, and died in 1479.

The COKERS: Most of the Cokers seem to have lived at Mappowder. However, the C/K pedigrees all agree that Elinor Coker who married William K. was a daughter of John Coker of Ashe, Dorset. Ash(e) is not a Dorset parish, so it must have been a manor. Ash, a town in Dorset, is located right next to Stourpaine, and a few miles north of Blandford St. Mary and Blandford Forum. That could possibly explain why Robert, s/o of Thomas K. "the younger" was a resident of Blandford.

The Visitation of Wiltshire, 1565, pedigree for Keilway of White Parish, describes the arms of C/K quarterly, 1 & 4 Keilway, 2, Argent a leopard's face Gules between five crows Sable (Barrett), 3. Camell.

My most recent COA acquisition from Wiltshire R. O., 2003, has a drawing of the "leopard's face & 5 crows" and labels it Ellis. Well, which is it, BARRETT or ELLIS?

This is a 5000 piece jigsaw puzzle! I am just trying to find a few of the pieces. More will be coming, shortly.

Sherrill

From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 24, 2003
Subject: Bruce Callaway's Robert Tree

I have just saved all the mail to diskette and will take it downstairs to print out. Don't trust my memory, but will comment on Bruce's Robert tree. Bruce, I am sure you got it right, except that Agnes may be a daughter of John Byfleet and Alice Gover, thus a half-sister of Robert (W & L). The Byfleet pedigree suggests that - she is the one who married SOUTH. Alice, who married GAWEN, is not on the Byfleet pedigree, so I believe she is a "full" sister of Robert (W & L). Did I send an attachment containing a Chancery Case involving Dame Anne's jointure in the Rockborne estate? Francis gave testimony regarding that, and said that at, or near the time of, Dame Anne's marriage to Sir William C/K her jointure was worked out and granted by Sir John C/K with Mr. Robert C/K.. Which Robert this was (MP or W & L) is not clear, but at least we have a Robert dealing with the Rockborne estate. I typed this but don't know if I sent it, so, if not, let me know and I will send that along.

I have been working on our Sherborne/Lillington lineage. "Joan Barret" has been our "sticking point." I now believe she is a bigger "sticking point" than we realized. Does anyone know who Henry Barret was? I have looked and looked for his name in print, without results. John and William Barret were prominent around Sherborne, involved in the Almshouse and other Sherborne matters, but no HENRY shows up, so far. I will ask some other questions about the Joan Barret connection shortly. But now, to my other mystery.

For a long, long time I have wondered who Dame Elizabeth Caylewaye of Hutton, Somerset was - I am still wondering. Can anyone help identify this connection?

Will of Elizabeth Caylewaye [15 Porch] [from Somerset Wills, Somerset Record Society], The Rev. F. W. Weaver (1905), Vol. XVI.
October 20th, 1526. Dame Elizabeth Cayleway, widow, of the parish of Hutton in the county of Somerset. To be buried within the chauncell of the parish church of Hutton or ells within such place as it shall please God at the time of my departing out of this transitory world.

To the high awter of the said parish church of Hutton for my offeryngs and tithes negligently forgotten 3s.4d.
To the reparacion of the said church 40s., or ells to the use of the said church as my sonne THOMAS PAYNE shall think best to Godds pleasure and my soule helth.
To the monastery of Mynchyn Bucklond 6s.8d.
To the charterhouse of Wittam 6s.8d. To the mother church of Wells 3s.4d.
To my daughter Mary a ryng of golde with a stone therein, a crosse of gold with foure litell pearles, and a flatt pece of silver.
To the house of Worspryng 5 marcs.
Residue: To my sonne THOMAS PAYNE all my goodes moveables, etc.
[named executor].
Witnesses: Thomys Hanson, clerk, my goostly fader, chosen at this present tyme and notry publique, John Tyllty, and William Yong.
Proved January 30th, 1526.

PAYNE pedigree (from Visitations of Somerset)
Of Hutton, nr. Weston-Super-Mare.
Arms: Gu. three crosses botonne Arg. on a chief Az. two escallps Or.
[Collinson, III, 591]

I    John Payne = Lady Jane Kelloway
A    Thos. Payne (*4) = Elizabeth [Sa. a bend nebule Arg.]
      1. Thos. Payne, of Som. 1573 = Marg. d. Baynham

(*4) footnote: "Pray for the soule of Thomas Payne, squier, and Eliz. his wife, which departed the 15 day of August 1528." Col. III, 591.

These two items fit together in some manner, but what Caylewaye did Elizabeth, widow Payne, marry?
Sherrill

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 24, 2003
Subject: Another Agnes/Alice placed

Hi All,

This sweet Alice has led me to Robert W&L! Two firm references place the Father of the lass who married William Gawen as ROBERT K/C of New Sarum. Their son Thomas Gawen was referred to by Robert W&L as his nephew and left a pair of silver salt cellars. He was also a witness to Robert W&L's Will.

Close examination of Robert W&L's will (Abstract of Somersetshire Wills 4th series as provided some time ago by Sherrill) reveals some very interesting things, and I would always back a will against the published 'pedigrees'. Thomas South of Swallowcliff is also referred to as his nephew, so one must assume that Robert and sweet Alice had a Sister who married a Mr. South.

Before I proceed with the rest of my assumptions, I would remind you that Robert was a lawyer, the overseers of his will was no less than Sir Thomas Bromley (Lord Chancellor of England), a Robert Freke of Shroton and Edward Anderson (Sarjent-at-law) therefore one must assume that the deliniation of his beneficiaries would have been accurate.

He refers to his cousins Francis and Ambrose. Clearly, as Warwick has hypothesised before they were his second cousins. Robert W&L married late in life. He would have been a batchelor and 28 when Francis was born, 38 when Ambrose was born and respectively 40 and 42 when their Sisters Elizabeth (1.Skilling2.Crooke) and Mary (Button) were born.His close association however with his 'family' is further shown by the fact that he was Godfather to both Elizabeth and Mary's children.

Robert W&L was never knighted. Extraordinary when you come to think about it. Many theories spring to mind, but I will leave such conjecture for later. What is fact however, is that he stuck closely to the Rockbourne knights for most of his life to the almost total exclusion of his Sherbourne/Lillington rels.

Until proven wrong therefore I and my machine have to declare that Robert W&L's daddy was no less than ROBERT K/C of New Sarum a.k.a Robert 1, the Mayor, the sometime member of parliament and brother of Sir John of Rockbourne!

Bruce

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Aug 24, 2003
Subject: Another Agnes/Alice placed

Yes yes Bruce. You are firing well.

Actually the pedigrees I have also give sweet Alice to a Robert of New Sarum. Your deduction looks very logical.

Where I had a problem previously was that Robert, the son of Thomas, was the only Robert listed in the pedigrees, who was old enough to be Robert W&L. Since then of course we have found Robert W&L's father was another Robert. My deduction then was out, but actually not the Pedigrees.

There remains the problem as to who the elder Robert was, and there is still no real evidence.

Yes, Robert W&L associated with his Rockborne cousins, which is logical as they were all somewhere around London, at the Legal courts, if not the Royal.

I suggested before that one reason for no recognition in the Pedigrees was that his country cousins may have seen the London crew as upstarts, but conversely they may very well have been considered by them as country bumpkins? Robert was of an older age group anyway than his surviving country cousins when he died, and probably by then well was out of touch. (Incidentally William was knighted by Catholic Queen Mary in 1553, which may have put some of the family out of favour for a while when Elizabeth arrived? It could also have impeded a knighthood for Robert.)

Did Robert not however remember his nephew Thomas, the son of William, in his will? (Thomas was presumably Thomas the Younger, son of William of Stalbridge, and of the Sherborne family.)

We do not really know that Robert W&L's daddy was the brother of Sir John, any more than he was the brother of Thomas, the father of William of Stalbridge, which is where my confusion began. (Thomas did have a legitimate son Robert, as well as William, but it was not then unusual to have two Thomases, or Marys, in the one family.)

My apologies to Robert the elder, but he could have been the product of a liaison out of wedlock? Which again could make him the brother of Sir John, or even Thomas.

Again I refer back to the strange situation which suggests to me that the Thomas said to be the son of William of Sherborne, presumably born about 1430, may have been the father of the Thomas we know born in 1476. If so there could have been another unlisted sibling or two around at that time - there is nothing in those maligned Pedigrees to indicate that 1476 Thomas actually had any brothers, or not.

Isn't this fun.

Warwick

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 25, 2003
Subject: Who is Henry Barrett

I am sorry Sherrill that I did not track back for you on Joanne/Anna Camell of Fittleford Dorset (b.ca1400) who married 1.HENRY BARRETT and 2.Henry de la Pomeroy. Henry's dad was John Barrett of Whelpley who married Agnes Ellis, and all this info comes from Inq.pm Nov 14 22HenV11(1506) Ellis of Bapton, which I believe that you supplied!

Now Henry Barrett and Joanne Camell's daughter was of course Jane/Joanna Barrett (born c.1410) the first wife of William K/C of Sherbourne(d1469) and I surmise the source of much wealth and property for the Sherbourne crowd, and the origin of the Camell arms at Lillington.

I have a hunch that the Pomeroy arms feature at Lillington also, but hold on that. As a prophylactic measure I have decided to have two days 'Vertigo R&R'!(Actually a prior engagement), but I am quite intrigued by Warwick's suggestion about Sir William's mysterious brothers Peter and Thomas about whom we know zilch (They have always puzzled me). Now that we have a spare 'Dame Elizabeth of Hutton', I need to talk to my 'machine'. As Cary would say More later!

Bruce

From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 25, 2003
Subject: Help on these windows

This is supposedly from the house at Lillington, "once the mansion of the Kelways, Coles, etc. In 1738 these arms were in it.

THE NORTH WINDOW:

1. Argent, a chevron sable. . . .winged argent; impaling, Gules, a chevron charged with a fleur-de-lis or between three swans proper; under it V. L.

2. Quarterly i. and iv. Kelway; ii. A leopard's head gules between five martlets sable. iii. Azure, a camel passant argent, Camel, impaling 1, Ermine, a cross saltire azure; 2, A leopard's head gules between three
martlets sable; 3. Azure, a camel passant argent; 4. Kelway; under it B. G.

THE SOUTH WINDOW:

1. Kelway and quarterings; impaling 1, Gules, a chevron between three swans proper; 2, Sable and or, a demi-lion issuant Sable; under it K. 1580 L.

2. Kelway and quarterings; on an escutcheon of pretence, Gules, a chevron between three swans proper; under it, K. L.

THE HALL WINDOW:

In the middle, Kelway.

On the right hand, 1. Leweston. 2. Azure, a cross ermine. 3. Ermine a cross saltire sable. 4. Gules, two lions passant sable.

On the left hand, 1 and 2, the quartrings of the Kelways; 3. Argent, a fess between three anvils sable;
4. Fitzjames.

In the NORTH WINDOW, #2 - whose arms is quartered with Camel -
1. "Ermine, a cross saltire azure" ?
In the SOUTH WINDOW, #1 - whose arms are Kelway & quarterings impaling -
2. "Sable and or, a demi-lion issuant Sable" ?

Just trying to cover all the bases. I hope this doesn't send Bruce back to bed with a COA headache!
Sherrill

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Aug 27, 2003
Subject: More family fun

Hi all

To add to the current agenda. I have been taking a new look at Brian's 1999 File. Is everyone aware that he had recorded 112 C/K wills from 1469-1837. I had asked him for some, mainly of Dorset, which I sent transcripts of through some time ago. As time goes by, others now look interesting - for example I do suspect all three of the K members of that Burning Ship may be there.

Also there are over 600 family references he has listed from 1120 to 1499. Only abbreviations, but I used many of them when producing the Chronicles. Some others now look interesting.

Other information refound:
The presumed Tree of the Mokisbere family. It makes sense from the time of Nicholas about 1150, up to the 1400s at least. My problem is that it presumes the Rockborne family originated in Devon. My current thought being still that Edmund went "back" from Wiltshire to Devon, (Cheldon, and Mokisbeare?) and thence his descendants got to Sherborne. He has Edmund, of Mockisbeare, as the son of John, father of Thomas, with reference to Rockborne. It fits, if the previous patron of Kellaways Church, William, was perhaps an uncle, and not Edmund's father.

"Sir" John Calaway furnished 15 footmen for the Flanders Army in 1453. He had Robert Keilway I MP for Salisbury, born by 1483. Some years are accurate, other unfortunately had to be guessed. One, you may remember, is Elizabeth Kelwey, widow of John, re the tenure of Cullompton Mills in 1493. Same widow? Which John? Cullompton? Our John's father?

With regard to Sir William Calwey, priest and knight of Ledbury, there was a comment with the brass that his name could have derived from two places near Ledbury and Hereford, named Callowe. (These may be among the Callow names I had spotted on a map). Who lived there?

More fun.
Best wishes
Warwick

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Aug 28, 2003
Subject: Devon/Rockborne C/Ks

> Sherrill,
>
> I won't get too involved with the COA for now - will wait for Bruce's comments.
>
> As regards the Devon/Sherborne/Rockborne connection, the issue is complex, but there is no doubt in my mind that all the families we are dealing with at that time (around 1400) are connected - Stowfords and all.
> The facts to date being:
>
> Edmund de C/K and his wife left the Wiltshire manor about 1394, although still apparently remaining patron of St Giles until 1399 (said to be for life). They went to Cheldon/Chawleigh. In Devon, not far from, but not
to either Mokisbeare, or Stafford Barton. After six years, another family member, John de C/K, returned as patron of St Giles from 1405-1429. A John also appeared at Chawleigh during this period, presumably therefore he was a son, or close relative. (Whether the same man or not we do not know.) There was at least one John, presumably the father of William of Sherborne, in Sherborne in the early 1400s.
Another John, presumed to be William of Sherborne's brother, appeared shortly after (there was a series of three Johns recorded in the 1467 IPM). The Thomas, who married Joanne Bingham, was in Sherborne around 1400. He is also referred to in the Mokisbeare Tree, as the son of Edmond, who incidentally was described as the son of John. (At St Giles there was an earlier patron John, who apparently died in 1336, and who matched the well known John le Calewe of Dorset - descended from the Giffards. However the patron immediately prior to Edmund - from 1336-1376 - was William).
>
The curious thing is that there seems to have been a stated differentiation between the Devon and Dorset families, although they shared similar arms. There was mention of intermarriage. The Devon branch was also described elsewhere as the "younger". Sadly the Dorset Pedigrees only begin with William of Sherborne, whereas the Devon family, which generally became Stowford then Stafford, is recorded in detail, perhaps back to William about 1200, certainly to Philip, the claimed "younger" son, a couple of generations later.
I could not originally find any connective names with the Sherborne family, although it does now look as though there may have been a Thomas/John/Thomas succession around 1400. However before and after this time there is no apparent similarity. The dates for the Dolton family are virtually guesses, and we need a lot more research in that area. When and where any intermarriage occurred we do not know.
>
My theory is that the family owned/occupied the properties at Mokisbeare Devon, Dunes Weston Dorset, and Kellaways Wiltshire, from a very early time, and could move from one to another as suited the occasion. The eldest son occupying the principal home, younger sons elsewhere (eg Dolton) and for example, should an eldest son die without issue, or there was some problem, (as seems to have occurred in Wiltshire with a Courtenay), or maybe for some reason such as the building of a new manor (which could have occurred at
Chawleigh), the principal family moved to another county.
>
In this way, while Edmund may have gone to Chawleigh, a son, John, could have returned to Wiltshire, before moving on to Sherborne. If, as we suspect, Thomas was Edmund's eldest son, he moved to the Bingham areas of Dorset and Somerset. (If William of Sherborne's father was a younger son, that could be the reason for his parentage not appearing in the Pedigrees - particularly as the Heralds in the 1500s had such a problem sorting the out the later names).

The importance of the Wiltshire manor should not be understated. From Elias de C/K to John le Calewe they were important in other places. Family members from there seem to have continuously used the "de" prefix, into the 1400s. When they lived elsewhere it was discarded. In Devon there was a use of de Stowford, clearly that location, and a differentiation from the other, but it also could have meant the place Stowford, rather than Stafford Barton - were they there as well? (Something else to explore).
>
I suggest, pending hopefully more information, that the first family was known as de Cailli, and it was their younger sons, possibly born in England, possibly direct from Caillouet, who made up our first families. Apart
from the Gloucestershire families of the 1200s who could have "reverted" to Caley or Cayley, the Devon Kelleys could have originated, either from the de Caillis, or come over direct from Normandy.
As regards the Durham family, the similarity to names in Normandy at the time, without an obvious direct link further south, makes me suspect that they may indeed have come direct from Normandy in the early 1200s.
Not sure what we are looking at around Hereford, but the location could be very old, predating Brimpsfield and Side.
>
We have little information as to who was living at Mokisbeare over this time, but if the principal family retained all these properties for so long, it is quite logical that the more remote family members from Stafford Barton could occupy/lease one or more properties, such as Idlecote or Cheldon, in the 1500s.
>
Hope I am not confusing anyone's thoughts more than before.
Regards
Warwick

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 28, 2003
Subject: Devon Rockborne C/Ks

I turn my back for a couple of days and you guys start messing with "my" family! Seriously though I have to agree with most that has been said, particularly as how I have not seen anything which seriously alters the input to my program! The COA's are another matter and I already have a headache.

Firstly we previously discussed at length the arms which appeared in the Lillington 'mansion' when y'all found the arms in Godney church which had obviously originated from the north window of Lillington. I will try to re-attach to remind you. The swans belong to the Lyte family and though we have evidence that two Lyte girls married K/C lads, no-one seems to have figured which two K/C's. You will recall however that Martin K/C (He of the will) married a Dorothy FRAMPTON. Dorothy had a brother Francis and a sister Joan who also married a LYTE.

The Camel is not a problem. William (1469) of Sherbourne's first wife Jane/Joanna Barrett brought these from her Mum Joanne who was a Camell of Fittleford Dorset.

The Lyte swans are married to (impaled) a silver shield with a black chevron with a silver .......winged critter which was not identified in 1738 so presents a problem 265 years later! The wretched red leopard's head with the varying number of black martlets to-gether with the crossed cross defies current research.

It is of much interest that the Lyte swans appear twice again in the South window.

The Hall window is the piece-de-resistance however. Here we have my discovery for the day! In the middle our K/C. On the right hand, 1. LEWSTON. 2.and 3. the wretched crossed crosses, but 4. the red shield with the two black lions belongs to STRANGEWAY! Sir John of Rockbourne married a Strangeway and his uncle Thomas married a Lewston, thus I believe confirming your hypothesis that the Rockbourne knights originated from Devon.

An asprin and back later.

Bruce

Lyte Godney

From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 29, 2003
Subject: Windows, COA, crossed crosses

A little more on the Hall window of Lillington. Argent a fess between three anvils sable resembles the COA of SMITH, Abingdon, Berks. The crossed crosses to which I clumsily referred are actually a common device. Vide the cross saltire of St.Andrew (Scotland) and the cross saltire of St.Patrick (Ireland). Therefor the 'ermine a cross saltire sable' is virtually a black St. Andrew's cross virtually indistinguishable from our own glaziers nippers.

Bruce

From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 30, 2003
Subject: Getting the generations right!

Here are a few things to consider while trying to get the right people in the right place at the right time.
>
> Patrons/Presenters at Kellaways, Wilts:
> Date        Parish                            Patron
> 1304    Cayllewey                    Johannes de Cayllewey
> 1312        "                                        "
> 1336    St Giles, Calewey        W. de Cayleway
> 1348    Cayllewey                      W. de Caillewey
> 1376    Kaylewey                       Edmund de Kaylewey
> 1380    Kaylewey                       Edmund de Kaylewey
> 1399    Tudryngton Cayleway   Robert Stodeleigh
> 1405    Kayelways                     John de Kaylewaye
> [That was the last of the C/K patrons of Kellaways through 1936.]
>
>     The Stoford/Stafford pedigree (Visit. of Devon) and the "Kellaway of Stowford" pedigree (same source) lists 8 generations of Kellaways before "they" say the name changes with Thomas Stowford (d. 18 Jan 1502/3 - of
the Inq. P.M.) who married Ann, d/o Thomas Copleston of Luckham, Somerset.
>     The pedigree credits Thomas & Ann with two children:
> 1. Richard Stafford (no additional data)
> 2. Philip Stowford, age 30 in 1503 (b. c1470); d. 22 April 1533; md. Alice
> Yeo (the remainder of the Stoford/Stafford pedigree concerns their
children and heirs).
>     A footnote says: "The portion of this pedigree from the commencement in ordinary type is from the Coll. of Arms and 'other authorities' (I would be suspicious of the 'other authorities') that part in italic is a copy of
the Visitation of Devon, 1564, Harl. Ms."    The italics begin with the above Thomas = Ann Copleston.
>     Using Warwick's calculation of 30 years per generation, I have backed up the preceeding generations, starting with 1470 for Thomas' birth, and applied approximate birthdates to those list in the prior 8 generations.
In the States, we use 25 years per generations for estimation purposes. That would, over time, add a generation or two. For our purpose here, I have applied estimated years of birth for the 8 generations. However, I have no
> idea how correctly stated the 8 generations are! Whatever, perhaps we can begin to get our perspective in order.
>     The first 8 generations are: (Kalleway)
> I     William (b. 1230)
> II    Thomas (b. 1260)
> III    Philip (b. 1290)
> IV   Thomas (b. 1320)
> V    Philip (b. 1350)
> VI   Thomas (b. 1380); md. d/o Prous, heir to her brother, Hugh Prous of Gatcombe.
> VII   John (b. 1410)
> VIII   Thomas (b. 1440) = Joan, d/o ___?___
>
>     Moving on up into the next century, let's go to Whiteparish, Wilts.
The list of freeholders there has suddenly become very annoying to me, as you will see. Mr. Hoar did not give a reference for his list of freeholders, unless it is from "Court Rolls of the Manor of Whelpley." Wonder where
> those might be located?
> Freeholders:
> 1493 (8 Hen VII)    William Cayleway, John Estcourt
> 1498 (13 Hen VII)    William Keyleway, John Estcourt
> 1502 (22 Hen VII)    William Keyleway, Thomas Estcourt
> 1519 (10 Hen VIII)    William Keilway, Thomas Estcourt*
> 1560 (2 Eliz)            John Keilway, Edmund Estcourt*
> 1561 (2 Eliz)            John Kelloway, Giles Estcourt
> 1569 (11 Eliz)           Henry Kelloway, Giles Estcourt
> 1576 (18 Eliz)           No C/K - No Estcourt
> * right here is a 40 year gap where we really need to see the descent of this land!
>
>     The William Cayleway, freeholder in 1493, could be William the son of William (d. 1469) - or it could be his grandson, William. The grandson certainly appears by 1519.
>
>     Back to the Lyte COA. Yes, Bruce, I did recognize the Lyte COA in the Lillington window. The Lyte pedigree, Visit. of Wilts, 1623) shows that William "Black Will" Lyte married Dorothea, relicta Buller, d/o Edw. Kellway of Rockborne [Edw. being an error]. The other C/K connection is that Henricus Lyte de Lytes Cary mar. "Agnes, Dau. et Coh. of Kellway of Cullompton married 1546; buried at Charlton 1564: ux 1.".......so we have a Devon and a Rockborne playing in the same ball game.
>     Sherrill

From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Aug 30, 2003
Subject: Getting the generations right!

Hi Sherrill

You are pretty right with your dates. Some further comments on the people involved:

I am fairly sure that the 1304 Johannes is the son of the Dorset man with the 1308 will, or more certainly the 1308 man was, and probably his heir (the Johns were successive at that time). He would have been the Giffard
inheritor, who died in 1336, and had presumably moved from Dorset to Wiltshire about the time the first St Giles was built in 1304. However there had been continuous family possession from perhaps 1165, or not long
after.
(I won't bring up the confusion that these Johns were also said to be "late of Brimpsfield", and of Mokesbeare.)

Not sure where that patron William fits, or even if there were two of them, as the list of patrons might imply.
The Mokesbeare Tree gives John as the father of Edmund, so it seems William could have been Edmund's uncle. Whether Edmund had remained at the Dorset manor (Dunes Weston or whatever), or lived elsewhere we do not know. I think however we can assume that the patrons would have lived, for much of their time anyway, at the adjacent manor. It seems therefore that probably Edmund lived at the Wiltshire manor from 1374, until he left for Chawleigh about 1394, building more chapels - one called St Giles. Possibly then remaining at Chawleigh until he died, being patron of Cheldon rectory from 1396 to 1411.

The John who went back to Wiltshire from 1405-29, also may have had one foot in Chawleigh, as a John was patron of Cheldon Rectory in 1440. I still think he was Edmund's son, and brother of our Thomas, both being born around
the time Edmund became patron of St Giles in 1374.

The appearance at Sherborne shortly after this time possibly meant that someone in the family was still living in Dorset, unless Thomas moved into a Bingham property after his marriage.

With regard to the Stowford/Stafford family, your dates are within a few of what I estimated. As for 25 or 30 years, we can only guess. My feeling is that there was a tendency then for the men to marry later, and we are looking at the male line. We only need one or two like Robert W&L to really extend the years.

Whitparish I find very interesting. It did go back to the early Sherborne times, and I must admit I saw it as part of the Estcourt disputes over Bapton, although it may not have been. William C/K's position is curious.
I now also think he may have been Sir John's brother, as there does not seem to be anyone in Robert's family who matched. He could have died about 1519 (the first Sir William died in 1507). Robert apparently always lived in
Sherborne. Could it have reverted to Robert's son Henry, after that 40 years, because William had no heirs? (I see the Estcourt name there).

John of Cullompton left a chalice or something to Sherborne Abbey. That suggests the Lyte COA connection at Lillington may have been with him, or more probably another marriage we are not aware of, rather than any
Rockborne connection with Lillington?

Am still looking at Brian's papers, particularly his Somerset wills in the 1500s. Have also updated my Précis of the Chronicles - now six pages.

Regards
Warwick

From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 31, 2003
Subject: Edmunds, how many?

I've been checking up on my Edmund references, and have discovered a contradiction to the list of Patrons/presenters at Kellaways, Wilts.
The list I recently posted showed:
> > 1348    Callewey (parish) W. de Caillewey, patron - rector presented:
> > Richard Creym
> >     That was from a typewritten list, covering the years 1304-1936, in Wiltshire Record Office, Trowbridge.
> >
> >     Another reference: "Wiltshire Institutions," by Thomas Phillips, says:
> > 1337    Capell de Kayleway - Patron: Edmundes de Kayleway - Priest: > Ricardi Creym.
> >     That would shorten the term of "W. de Caillewey" as patron.
> >
> > &nbs