
Kell-Chat
An
Ongoing International Conversation
between Callaway and Kellaway family researchers
discussing family origin, history and genealogy research in England
2003
(this file is VERY large and can be slow to load)
Primary
Participants -
Warwick Kellaway (Hamilton, New Zealand)
Bruce Callaway (Sydney, New South Wales)
Bill Callaway (British Columbia)
Sherrill Williams (Unicoi, Tennessee)
Pat Schnurr (Maitland, Florida)
Cary Moore (Birmingham, Alabama)
Bill Piper (Kent, U.K.)
From: Pat
Schnurr
Sent: Jun 20, 2003
Subject: Gyles Kellwaye
I saw that
marr. for Gyles Kellwaye & Margaret Clarke in Stratton 9 Oct. 1569 when we
worked Dorset this year.. She is shown as being from Sturminster. (Dorset
Marrs. Vol. XV Stratton) another new mention I got on a Giles was
Somerset Visitation Vol. VII, p. 45. Bruton Hundred Milton Church was given
to the Canon of Bruton in the late 12th century. By 1535 the Canon was
letting land and tithes,. In 1549 the crown granted the whole rectory to
Giles Kelway. I had not seen that before.
Pat
From:
Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jun 20, 2003
Subject: Gyles Kellwaye
Thank you Pat.
From: Bruce
Callaway
Sent: Jun 21, 2003
Subject:
Galiasse Giles/Gyles
Bruce
From: Pat Schnurr
Sent: Jul 01, 2003
Subject:
W. Calewe, Knt. Ledbury,
Hereford
At the PRO I picked up
a small book entitled "List of Rubbings of Brasses" printed in 1915 by the
Dept. of Engraving Illustrations and Design. P. 64 in a section of Academical
Costumes 15th century listed
C 1410 - W. Calewe, Knt. Ledbury, Hereford - V & A
1907 (no plate).
There was no description just the words as I have copied. There were pictures
and descriptions of other robes, costumes, etc. I wonder if this means that
there is some sort of book or perhaps even a robe in existence -- and at the
Victoria and Albert Museum?. I have strolled thru the V & A at least three
times and remember a whole section of magnificent costumes in elaborate
cases.
The book was indexed and W. Calewe was only name shown. for C/K's.
Is there any way you can check this out? Just the mention means there is
something somewhere.
Pat
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jul 2, 2003
Subject:
W. Calewe, Knt. Ledbury,
Hereford
Thanks -- great pictures. I will have to mull this over. Now anyone want to tackle the Kelway C/O quartered with Chudleigh at St. Edmund's Church, Exeter, Devon. Simon Chudleigh - 4th Rector of St. Edmund's in 1442. In Exeter Chuirches by Beatrix Cresswell P. 52 - (c/o not shown ) Got scant info on Chudleign family from this book. What was connection? Pat
Bruce et al --
Cresswell in the History of Exeter Churches - St. Edmund's gives a great deal of
information about the church. She includes a picture of the front which is the
third church on the site built after the fire in 1833. On page 30 she is
talking about the glass in the various windows. She says "On the north side
one window has two quarries of old glass with armorial bearings:--(1) Ermine 3
lions rampant gules --Chudleigh, impaling barry gules and vaire --Beaumont, (2)
Chudleigh, impaling argent 2 glaziers irons in saltire sable, between 4 pears
pendant or--Kellaway.
She goes on to say the connection of the Chudleigh family and St. Edmund is
unknown.
Recovery & Restoration - (at PRO) pub. 1985 page 75 refers to "The Juries of
Devonshire" - Chudleigh Parish near Exeter. Devon in 1642 was one of a few
counties who responded to the order to fund the war in Ireland by land sales.
The Muster Rolls were held to implement the Royal Commissions - and provoked
such hostility that at South Moulton and Cullompton near riots broke out.
Parliamentary leaders mentioned were Sir John Northcote and Sir John Bampfield,
Sir George Chudleigh and Sir Peter Prideaux. None were to survive in govt.
during the 1650's. Also found mention of William Chudleigh in Inqs. P.M.
during reign of Henri VIII and Chris Chudleigh during reign of Elizabeth.
Thanks for additional info. Pat
This is
G o o g l e's
cache of
http://www.devon.gov.uk/library/locstudy/1642eng.html.
G o o g l e's
cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
The page may have changed since that time. Click here for the
current page without highlighting.
1642. England. Monarchs. 1625-1649. Charles I. By the King. A proclamation of His Majesty's grace, favour and pardon to the inhabitants of ... Exceter.- ([London] : [s.n.], [1642])
Westcountry Studies Library: LE 1642/11/09. - Wing C2669
The Civil War split the county and even families down the middle. In Exeter there was considerable sympathy for Parliament. While pardoning the citizens of Exeter for their financial support of the rebellious armies the King excluded Sir George Chudleigh, Sir John Northcote, Sir Samuel Rolle and Sir Nicholas Martyn from this general pardon. The royal coat of arms and the generous layout is used by the printer to good effect in an attempt to reinforce the impression of royal authority.
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jul 4, 2003
Subject: Jasper Kellaway
> Hello all again,
>
> I see things are starting to happen. Don't know too much about the
weather in other parts, but we have a cold front coming up from Antarctica, and expect a cool weekend. It won't snow here, but it is down to 300m further south, and snowing near Christchurch.
> The system is working well. The ladies offer a question, JWK makes some comments, and the man with the chicken accesses his vast store of
reference information and produces great pictorial evidence, and it is all enlarged upon.
> And there is a lot more to come. Look forward to that Norman News.
>
> Have just received my 22 page CFANET Newsletter. As with the other mail this morning, wills et al, there is a lot of digesting to do.
>
> The comments about the 1650s are interesting, as I have just gone back to Googles "Kellaway NZ" and found a reference, on page 25, to the Combs
family of Barbados. It seems there is quite a lot of research on Barbados, and
it began, in 1656, with the exile of 80 men and a youth, Royalist Exiles, prisoners, "to be disposed of at the best rate in exchange for
commodities".
> Probably subsequent to the suppression of the uprising against Cromwell at Salisbury in 1655. Among them was a Jasper Kellaway.
>
> Unfortunately nothing really about him, but there were Jaspers of note in the 16-1700s, the most relevant perhaps being at St Georges Chapel Windsor (remember?), beginning with little Jasper being borne, and baptised, on 7 Sep 1668.
> Charles II had returned as King in 1660 - to Windsor. Jasper may/may not have been the son of Dean's Curate Thomas Kelway, or a Jasper, but Henrietta-Maria (Queen's name?) a daughter of Jasper was
buried there in 1680, and his wife Frances in 1697.
> Did poor old Jasper ever get home - was he compensated - Windsor - or did
he remain in Barbados?
>
> The Barbados information seems to come from the Lord Mayors Court of London - Depositions Relating to the Americas 1641-1736 - Peter Wilson Coldham 1980. The reference could also cover other "shipments" to the Americas in that period - Virginia etc?
>
> Keep warm
> Warwick
From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Jul 5, 2003
Subject: Jasper Kellaway
> I found the following in Peculiars of the Dean & Chapter of Sarum:
> Kelleway, Jasper senr. of Sarum & Hester Smith of the Close, Sarum Cathedral (marriage); bondsman,
> Jasper Kelwaye junr.. 5 April 1640.
> --- Schnurr200 at aol.com wrote:
> > If the uprising was in Salisbury -- how about this picked up this year.
> This must be a second marriage, and Pat's register listings are for Jasper, junr.???
> >
> > "Salisbury Cathedral Bapts. and Burials bwt 1564 - 1837 (Wilts.)
> >
> > 1635 - Elizabeth dau. of Jasper Kellaway and Honor - buried April 5, 1641 - Jasper Kellaway s/Jasper and Ester bapt. Dec. 12, 1641 - Jasper s/ Jasper and Ester buried.
> >
> > No others listed but there were apparently others living right there. Pat
From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Jul 5, 2003
Subject: COA
If we are going to "start" to "begin" thinking
about a
> DNA project, we need to "start thinking." I have subscribed to this e-journal for some time now. Go to their website and explore. By the way, Bruce, Russ wants a copy of the "nippers and pears" COA - just the shield without the "chicken" or tiger or whatever else sits atop. He would want the proper colors (tinctures). Do we have such a thing lying around?
Russ, I received the "talk to it" software. Looks interesting. I'll try to install and give it a try
shortly.
Sherrill
While at the
PRO I spent some time looking at a book entitled "Ecclesiastical Seals in Durham
Treasury" Published by Greenville and Blair 1917-18. I copied a great deal of
it and it is included in the copies with my notes sent to Sherrill and Cary.
However, the poor old machine at the PRO copied everything so faintly it is
hardly readable - or else they were trying to save on the print ink. I have
copied this so thought maybe you all might be interested.
Bishop Kellewe - Seal No. 3127 - Oval, 3 l/2 x 2". The Bishop is standing on a
pedestal in a niche. With canopy of tabernacle work, vested in alb, stole,
dalmatic, with orphreys, chasable and amice. He wears an embroidered mitre, his
right hand blesses, his left with maniple holds the crozier. In a smaller niche
on the dexter is the figure of St. Cuthbert in mass vestments and mitre and
holding the head of St. Oswald, in a niche on the sinister side is the crowned
figure of St. Oswald with sceptre. Each of these figures stands on the head of
a monster. Above the centre canopy are the figures III.
A footnote below says - Wwith this seal the change begun on the seal of Bishop
Farnham is completed and we have the Bishop with his attendant Saints forming
one group within the architectural setting. The absence of armorial decoration
is probably accounted for by the lowly origin of the Bishop. The Crook of the
Crozier is more ornate than the previous seals which have shown only a plain
curve quite free from ornament. The Roman numeral III above the canopy denotes
that he was the third Richard, Bishop of Durham. His Register has been printed
in four volumes entitled Registrum Palatinum Denulmense in the Roll Series
edited by Sir Thomas D. Hardy. His will is printed in Wills and Invents No. 21
A second seal, oval 2 l/1" x 1 3/5" is described as Our Lady standing with the
child Christ under a trefoiled canopy. On the dexter side is the head of St.
Oswald, on the sinister, the head of St. Cuthbert. Beneath, the Bishop in mass
vestments is praying. The field is beautifully diapered.
A third seal - No. 3128 is Oval 1 3/4" x l l/3 ". The Annunciation In front of
the Archangel Gabriel is a scroll upon which Ave M. Above the head of the
Blessed Virgin are clouds from which descends the Holy Dove with nimbus.
Beneath, the Bishop kneeling, prays. I attempted to take pictures of the seals
but they were so faint and so small that they just resemble blobs.
In addition to the information on the seals of the Bishops there was a section
entitled Private Seals -- there were many Kellewe seals - all of which appear to
belong to the Bishop's extended family.
One which I thought was interesting --now that Bruce has the Chicken on his head
C/O perhaps we should all get seals. Seal No. 1478 - Kellawe, Peter of
---A.D. 1292-95 Oval 7/8" x 3/4"
An ape, with an owl seated on its right paw, riding on an ass (Sounds familiar)
Anybody seen this? Pat
Well --
Sherrill -- we can chew on this for awhile. we will need an index of Durham
Kellawe's just to sort them out. Warwick -- Poor Richard did have a hard time
with Edward II. He didn't want him as Bishop in the first place. Wanted
"favorite" - He did furnish 1,500 troops for Bannockburn and his brother
Patrick led them. It is estimated that they had almost 100,000 troops there
against 30,000 Scots. Said "the King did not have the interest of the people
with him". In Vol. I History of Durham - footnote says "In the Bodleian
Library the MSS - original register of Bishop Kellow, Bishop of Durham - a
folio of inestimable wealth. Contains a great no. of charters, commissions,
etc. issued or made by this prelate together with other writs sent in the
bishopric by K. - the register was borrowed out of the cursitor's office by an
agent of Lord Oxford to produce evidence relating to some action of
Northumberland and that an accountable receipt was given for them which is
remaining in the office".
Also, in my stuff is copy of will Sherrill found in 2000. Mentions brother
Patrick and 100 lbs. he left to church. Not much else. Pat
C'mon you guys! Here I am stumbling along with Coats of Arms and now y'all are onto seals. Lordy me! following is like holding onto the tail of a tiger (Rampant of course!) Bruce
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 19, 2003
Subject: Kellawe
Patrick Kellawe Seal Cecilia Kellawe Seal
Read: British Province of Carmelite Friars
Prof. D. W. Rollason Department of History, University of Durham.
Dear Prof. Rollason,
I note your appeal through the PRO for support for Medieval Seals on-line. As this would be a most valuable genealogical resource that could become much used throughout the world, I would like to record my personal support for the initiative.
Just a few months ago researchers from the Callaway Family Association of America discovered the Greenwell and Blairs Catalogue whilst on a visit to the U.K. I note that the University of Durham has an excellent website which displays the seals in the Catalogue. A number of KELLAWE seals are listed.
The Kellaways and the Callaways (with variant spellings), having joined forces in genealogical research and having established a common origin to the names are well advanced in medieval connections. You will be aware of Richard de Kellawe, Bishop of Durham 1311-1316. Having established linkages to the Bishop whose life is recorded in much detail, our researchers were understandably excited to find the seals of others of the name bearing the Lion rampant which features prominently in the Bishop's COA. We are attempting to place these folk.
Obviously, for researchers to have access to seals
on-line from other areas of the U.K. particularly through the resources of the
PRO would be a most valuable and widely used facility. It has our enthusiastic
support.
Yours Sincerely,
Dr. Bruce C. Callaway
Sydney, Australia
Bruce Marvellous backup again. Some fascinating seals - can't recognise the lady's face however. These seals could prove to be more valuable than the COA we were scratching with. I know I virtually gave up looking for the family arms among the few accessible from that time.
Probably the Durham c/klan were a branch, which became more separated with time, but that lion rampant, rude or not, is interesting. The 1320 Richard, who presumably died in 1343, left a widow Agnes, son William (born 1332), and could well have been the son of the early William, or maybe Patrick. Patrick and Cecilia anyway had the lion. Presumably Magistrate William of 1343 was the father of 1342 William Jnr, also of one (Chaplain) Nicholas mentioned in 1354, 1360 and 1370. Simon was the father of the other. A third part of the manor of Magna Kellow was mentioned then. Curiously Henry in 1345, with children John and Elizabeth, had a third part of the manor - was it shared between three brothers? - perhaps the sons of Alexander, as Henry was his son. If so, presuming Alexander and Thomas were brothers, Alexander was perhaps the elder, and originally held the manor, which was divided on his death - between sons Henry, 1320 Richard, and William? Where does Simon fit?
It seems possible that Bishop Richard may also have used the big pussy cat seal, which commonly indicated a person or family of considerable import - not necessarily the lowly status quoted elsewhere. If they all had the lion, we have a family. I had suspected that Bishop Richard, Patrick and the early William were brothers, the others cousins. (Someone needs to have a Mensa level to work it out, or maybe a special computer programme).
The real question may be - just who were Thomas and Alexander? And when was Magna Kellawe founded. Earlier researchers were apparently just as confused about spelling variations as we were. I still wonder how Kellawe became Kellaw or Kelloe - phonetics don't seem to work - or did they use a different language up there? Are they Geordies - but that is at Newcastle?
I'm sure there will be more in the mail. Best wishes Hopalong PS It is due to be -2C here tonight.
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 20, 2003
Subject: seals of Bishop Richard de Kellewe
The second seal shows Our Lady with the child Christ. Beneath her is our Bishop Richard praying. Now we have on the left and right sides the heads of both Saints sans body!
Just a little more to add to page 14 of Warwick's Chronicles. In 1366 Isabella, widow of William de Kellawe of Lumley, granted her manor of Whittonstall and two parts of the manor's demense to the de Menyvilles. The grant in the possession of the Uni. of Durham indicates that she had inherited the manor from her Father Robert Darrayns.The Darrayns were very prominent around Durham. The manor is not now extant as shown by the aerial photograph attached, but is subject to a current archeological dig.
Quite a bit more the DK's (Durham K's) but
will forward later.
Bruce Callaway
Sydney, Australia
Manor Whittonstall Richard Bishop Durham Seal Richard's other seal
Thank you so much for your disc which arrived this afternoon. Also for the copy of Greenwell & Blair which has much more detail on the seals than is available on the University of Durham's website. It gives relationships and references which in due course will tie up the medieval C/K's of the north, and add a little to what Warwick has already garnered.
You ask, Sherrill, about the COA in Sherbourne. I think that I have this on file complete with the mullet (rawl of the spur) denoting a third son. Unfortunately the College of Arms only has indexes dating back to 1530. From that time on they sent out Heralds in visitations to record and verify COA's. Prior to the College of Arms, whilst Coats were well established they were preceded by blazons (Fowl on head) and preceded again by Seals, you have a gap of some 400 years before COA's became regulated.
It is clear that the C/K's pears and glaziers nippers preceded even the Worshipful Colleges. More particularly the Worshipful Company involved with stained and other glass.It is also clear that the C/K's had their pears and glaziers nippers before the College of Arms came into effect.Leaving aside the pears, the glaziers nippers(syn.grozing irons) are an ancient device. They are described by Theophilus in the year 1000 as "grosarium ferrum". Somewhere along the line we picked them up.
Until such time as we can establish this,
I see little hope of finding out who the third son was and of whom.
Frustrating isn't it? Of what there is no doubt is the fact that an ancient
C/K was involved with glass, but whom?
Bruce
Callaway
Sydney, Australia
Sherrill
The connection with Frank Holden looks promising, particularly if we can glean a little more about the Stafford Barton/ Dolton area. Hope to hear more.
I am finding your latest massive sending very interesting in many respects, but have a long way to go to digest it.
Before making comment in detail however I would like to refer back to Robert II of Wards and Liveries fame. (5 July message - just after my mishap). I agree we are now coming to accept that he was closely related to the Rockborne Knights, even if there is no factual evidence available. Also that he was almost certainly the son of Robert I of New Sarum.
Perhaps however we need to consider the fact that, if he was Robert I's son, and born in 1497, Robert I must have been born around 1470-75.
As Sir John was also apparently born around 1470, we should perhaps see Robert I as a brother of Sir John, and son of the first Sir William, rather than his son. The fact that neither Robert is in the Pedigrees could be explained by Robert I being born out of wedlock, either before William married, or from some liaison later.
Francis and Ambrose could not have been Robert II's first cousins, as they were too young, but still "cousins". Dame Ann would have been more like a niece, by marriage.
Sorry to spread more confusion, but we also have that elusive Thomas, born in 1476, with sons Robert and William, born presumably about the same time as Robert II. Robert I could have been Thomas's brother - there seemed no problem having two sons, or daughters, with the same name at that time. That family was associated with the Gawens - John later marrying Jane Gawen, Alice marrying William Gawen. There also do not appear to have been any Roberts among the later descendants of the Knights.
Again there is a certain amount of wooliness over Thomas, who I think was possibly the son of another Thomas, the son of William of Sherborne, and half brother to the first Sir William. (There are two Thomases identifiable in the Pedigrees as the sons of old William of Sherborne - different mothers - but neither could have been born in 1476, if William died in 1469.) With all this uncertainty, the Pedigrees could have missed Robert I somewhere.
I still see Robert II's main association with the Rockborne Knights as being social/political, and perhaps educational - Sir John and Sir William presumably introduced him at Court. His father should have been able to see him educated in Law, although again the first Sir William (if his grandfather) could have arranged that.
Comments?
I was intrigued by the Giffard Tree, and the huge amount of information accompanying them. At first was puzzled as to how John le Calewe could possibly be seen as an heir to the Giffard properties, when there were Giffard male heirs available, but the copious notes probably explain that it was a "convenience" at the time.
The Tree detail is very interesting, although we need to look closely at the C/K line of descent, as I still think they missed a John. (Bertha's son Elias must have been born about/before 1200, his son John about 1230, the "missing" John, who probably left the 1308 will, about 1260, then the Giffard Inheritance John, who died in 1336.)
In the Giffards there is also a problem, as Elias Giffard IV is said to have been a minor in 1201-2 (born at the latest in 1181). Unlikely, if his younger sister Bertha was the mother of naughty Matilda, who helped murder her husband about 1220, and had a daughter of presumably teenage at the time. Matilda would have been born probably around 1190, Bertha around 1165. Elias IV's father Elias III was said to be dead before 1190. Unless the Tree has mistakenly put Bertha as younger than Elias, when she was at least 15 years older, Elias IV would have to have been born around 1160. (Don't think the 1220 murder date is too far out)
(Unless there are errors, they could have missed a generation in both families.)
Matilda's problem could be suitable for the Newsletter, Donna. Makes a good story.
Must go and do some more reading, and stirring.
Best wishes
Warwick
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 28, 2003
Subject: Kittric Nether Compton Parish Church, Dorset
Importantly however if we can ever sort out the Patrons and the Rectors of Nether Compton, Ashmore and Sutton Bingham, we will be a long way forward in explaining the K/C alias as Clarke and the association of these both with Sherborne and Rockbourne, but Wow! is it complicated.
Just scanning your English research at the moment on the disc, but before we get to far away from COA's, crests and seals, I note that we really should be paying more attention to the crests. You quote Fairburne's "Book of Crests" wherein the K/C's of Hampshire and Sherborne Dorset have their Grozing irons and pears crested by a silver chook, (chicken) combed, wattled, beaked and spurred in blue. Whereas the K/C's of Devon and the Stowfords have either a black tiger (passant and regardant) or a silver barnacle bird cresting their nippers and pears. More later Bruce
See information from Dorset at this web site: http://www.swuklink.com/BAAAGBYS.php
From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Jul 29, 2003
Subject: Robert I, crests etc.
Robert I remains somewhat a "mystery man" even tho' we know he was a Mayor of Salisbury as well as briefly an MP. His "projected" dates of birth and death are not beside me as I write, but he may not have been long married to the widow Byfleet before his death. Robert I seems to have been a "merchant" but he may have inherited that position by his marriage to Alice, as I think I have read that John Byfleet was a merchant in Salisbury. Alice's son, Thomas Byfleet, as suggested on the pedigree chart, was her heir. Thomas Byfleet is mentioned in the Chancery Case involving Alice Keilway and William Dean, also suggesting his heirship and interest in the mercantile business in Salisbury.
Another clue to the relationship to the Rockborne family is found in one of the many chancery cases involving the property. In one, I think involving Lady Anne's joynture in the property, reference is made to "Mr. Robert Callaway" (or however spelled). Whether this is Robert I or Robert W & L will need to be checked on. I have transcribed this chancery case, but not typed it which I must do, to determine the time perspective, etc. Nevertheless, here is one instance of a Robert's connection to Rockborne manor.
I still feel that Robert W & L has a "full blood relationship" to the Rockborne family. Nothing he does, via his will, or other conveyances, ever involves the Sherborne family. His allegiance seems totally toward the Rockbornes. A number of the leaseholders of the Rockborne family's properties are also found around Salisbury as public officials, etc. And then, there is the Webb family mystery.
Robert W & L certainly had influence to get his "foot in the door" with the Crown of the period, and no doubt the influence came from the Rockborne family, the only ones who seemingly had the influence. But Robert W& L's relationship to the family should have been the reason he advanced so far. He certainly recognized this as shown by his generosity towards the Rockborne family in his will.
Of course the Rockbornes and the Sherbornes have common relationships at some point in time. Our problem with the generations of the Sherborne family is causing confusion. It would also be helpful if we could learn to whom, and when, the first COA was awarded. The Sherborne family, the Rockborne family, and John of Cullompton, all shared the same "pears & glaziers' snippers" COA, as well as the C/K-Stoffords (Staffords). The fragment of the arms in St. Catherine's chapel, said to be a "quarter" of arms, has the mullet (3rd son), thus my question - third son of whom? - and with what family was it "quartered"?? How can we begin to answer the question of the common ancestor of the Sherbornes, Rockbornes, Staffords & John of Cullompton?
Awaiting some brilliant answers. Sherrill
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Jul 29, 2003
Subject: Robert I, crests etc
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Jul 29, 2003
Subject: Robert I, crests etc
I have been closely following The Sherbourne/Rockbourne disccusion, and concur that Robert W&L is not only a common link but closely related to both families. I believe that Robert 1 the mayor was his daddy, and I have no difficulty placing Robert 1 as a grandson of William of Sherbourne.
I have a problem with this Warwick. I believe the arms to be much older than this which brings me to page 9 & 10 of your Chronicles and Muxbeare. I have confirmed that in 1242 William Calleway or Kelloway held one fee in Mukelbere and Sweteton 'of the honor of Gloucester' (Fees,p780). The manor (in Halberton parish) was not sold by the family until the very late 1500's therefore was a family nest for a much longer period than either Sherbourne or Rockbourne. This then possibly makes the Dolton arms of considerable interest.
Sherrill,
From: Pat Schnurr
Sent: Aug 3, 2003
Subject: Joseph Callaway,
Clifton Maybanke
Hi Bruce -- we know that Anne Stroud hid Joseph after the battle of Sedgefield. He had apparently been with Monmouth entourage the night before the battle at the Stroud Manor. He was forty years old. We know that he was listed as being from Clifton Maybanke and I found his birth date in Bradford Abbas I spent several days doing circles in the Lillington - Sherborne area trying to find more on him. Could not locate a marriage date or any children. His parents Martin and Ursula show no brothers or sisters for him. Went up to North Petherton and to Yeovil looking for answers -- nothing. However, he was hanged at Somerton, quartered and his head put on a pike so he definitely did not come. to Va. My thought is that he did have children and possibly a son named Joseph who was taken out of the country - and to Virginia. In our Monmouth stuff it is mentioned that lots of the men escaped - many going up to Bristol and taking boats - paying to hide their identities. We made the same search around Exeter trying to find the Thomas K. - Davy link. Did you see my notes about the battle at Lyme Regis -- and the mention of Colway Field and Colway house. I thought that was interesting since Thomas was killed at Lyme Will we ever know. It is like hitting your head against a brick wall -- several times. Pat.
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 18, 2003
Subject: Joan versus Joanna and the Agneses
See these links: Joanne and Joanna Barrett, and The Pomeroys
From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 20, 2003
Subject: figuring out the Pomeroy connection
From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 24, 2003
Subject: Bruce Callaway's Robert Tree
I have just saved all the mail to diskette and will take it downstairs to print out. Don't trust my memory, but will comment on Bruce's Robert tree. Bruce, I am sure you got it right, except that Agnes may be a daughter of John Byfleet and Alice Gover, thus a half-sister of Robert (W & L). The Byfleet pedigree suggests that - she is the one who married SOUTH. Alice, who married GAWEN, is not on the Byfleet pedigree, so I believe she is a "full" sister of Robert (W & L). Did I send an attachment containing a Chancery Case involving Dame Anne's jointure in the Rockborne estate? Francis gave testimony regarding that, and said that at, or near the time of, Dame Anne's marriage to Sir William C/K her jointure was worked out and granted by Sir John C/K with Mr. Robert C/K.. Which Robert this was (MP or W & L) is not clear, but at least we have a Robert dealing with the Rockborne estate. I typed this but don't know if I sent it, so, if not, let me know and I will send that along.
I have been working on our Sherborne/Lillington lineage. "Joan Barret" has been our "sticking point." I now believe she is a bigger "sticking point" than we realized. Does anyone know who Henry Barret was? I have looked and looked for his name in print, without results. John and William Barret were prominent around Sherborne, involved in the Almshouse and other Sherborne matters, but no HENRY shows up, so far. I will ask some other questions about the Joan Barret connection shortly. But now, to my other mystery.
For a long, long time I have wondered who Dame Elizabeth Caylewaye of Hutton, Somerset was - I am still wondering. Can anyone help identify this connection?
Will of Elizabeth Caylewaye [15 Porch] [from Somerset Wills,
Somerset Record Society], The Rev. F. W. Weaver (1905), Vol. XVI.
October 20th, 1526. Dame Elizabeth Cayleway, widow, of the parish of
Hutton in the county of Somerset. To be buried within the chauncell of the
parish church of Hutton or ells within such place as it shall please God at the
time of my departing out of this transitory world.
To the high awter of the said parish church of Hutton for my
offeryngs and tithes negligently forgotten 3s.4d.
To the reparacion of the said church 40s., or ells to the use of the said church
as my sonne THOMAS PAYNE shall think best to Godds pleasure and my soule helth.
To the monastery of Mynchyn Bucklond 6s.8d.
To the charterhouse of Wittam 6s.8d. To the mother church of Wells 3s.4d.
To my daughter Mary a ryng of golde with a stone therein, a crosse of gold with
foure litell pearles, and a flatt pece of silver.
To the house of Worspryng 5 marcs.
Residue: To my sonne THOMAS PAYNE all my goodes moveables, etc.
[named executor].
Witnesses: Thomys Hanson, clerk, my goostly fader, chosen at this present tyme
and notry publique, John Tyllty, and William Yong.
Proved January 30th, 1526.
PAYNE pedigree (from Visitations of Somerset)
Of Hutton, nr. Weston-Super-Mare.
Arms: Gu. three crosses botonne Arg. on a chief Az. two escallps Or.
[Collinson, III, 591]
I John Payne = Lady Jane Kelloway
A Thos. Payne (*4) = Elizabeth [Sa. a bend nebule Arg.]
1. Thos. Payne, of Som. 1573 = Marg. d. Baynham
(*4) footnote: "Pray for the soule of Thomas Payne, squier, and Eliz. his
wife, which departed the 15 day of August 1528." Col. III, 591.
These two items fit together in some manner, but what Caylewaye did Elizabeth,
widow Payne, marry?
Sherrill
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 24, 2003
Subject: Another Agnes/Alice placed
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Aug 24, 2003
Subject: Another Agnes/Alice placed
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 25, 2003
Subject: Who is Henry Barrett
From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 25, 2003
Subject: Help on these windows
This is supposedly from the house at Lillington, "once the
mansion of the Kelways, Coles, etc. In 1738 these arms were in it.
THE NORTH WINDOW:
1. Argent, a chevron sable. . . .winged argent; impaling, Gules, a chevron
charged with a fleur-de-lis or between three swans proper; under it V. L.
2. Quarterly i. and iv. Kelway; ii. A leopard's head gules between five
martlets sable. iii. Azure, a camel passant argent, Camel, impaling 1, Ermine,
a cross saltire azure; 2, A leopard's head gules between three
martlets sable; 3. Azure, a camel passant argent; 4. Kelway; under it B. G.
THE SOUTH WINDOW:
1. Kelway and quarterings; impaling 1, Gules, a chevron between three swans
proper; 2, Sable and or, a demi-lion issuant Sable; under it K. 1580 L.
2. Kelway and quarterings; on an escutcheon of pretence, Gules, a chevron
between three swans proper; under it, K. L.
THE HALL WINDOW:
In the middle, Kelway.
On the right hand, 1. Leweston. 2. Azure, a cross ermine. 3. Ermine a
cross saltire sable. 4. Gules, two lions passant sable.
On the left hand, 1 and 2, the quartrings of the Kelways; 3. Argent, a fess
between three anvils sable;
4. Fitzjames.
In the NORTH WINDOW, #2 - whose arms is quartered with Camel -
1. "Ermine, a cross saltire azure" ?
In the SOUTH WINDOW, #1 - whose arms are Kelway & quarterings impaling -
2. "Sable and or, a demi-lion issuant Sable" ?
Just trying to cover all the bases. I hope this doesn't send Bruce back to bed
with a COA headache!
Sherrill
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Aug 27, 2003
Subject: More family fun
Hi all
To add to the current agenda. I have been taking a new look at Brian's 1999
File. Is everyone aware that he had recorded 112 C/K wills from 1469-1837. I
had asked him for some, mainly of Dorset, which I sent transcripts of through
some time ago. As time goes by, others now look interesting - for example I do
suspect all three of the K members of that Burning Ship may be there.
Also there are over 600 family references he has listed from 1120 to 1499. Only
abbreviations, but I used many of them when producing the Chronicles. Some
others now look interesting.
Other information refound:
The presumed Tree of the Mokisbere family. It makes sense from the time of
Nicholas about 1150, up to the 1400s at least. My problem is that it presumes
the Rockborne family originated in Devon. My current thought
being still that Edmund went "back" from Wiltshire to Devon, (Cheldon, and
Mokisbeare?) and thence his descendants got to Sherborne. He has Edmund, of
Mockisbeare, as the son of John, father of Thomas, with reference to Rockborne.
It fits, if the previous patron of Kellaways Church, William, was perhaps an
uncle, and not Edmund's father.
"Sir" John Calaway furnished 15 footmen for the Flanders Army in 1453. He had
Robert Keilway I MP for Salisbury, born by 1483. Some years are accurate, other
unfortunately had to be guessed. One, you may remember, is Elizabeth Kelwey,
widow of John, re the tenure of Cullompton Mills in 1493. Same widow? Which
John? Cullompton? Our John's father?
With regard to Sir William Calwey, priest and knight of Ledbury,
there was a comment with the brass that his name could have derived from two
places near Ledbury and Hereford, named Callowe. (These may be among the Callow
names I had spotted on a map). Who lived there?
More fun.
Best wishes
Warwick
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Aug 28, 2003
Subject: Devon/Rockborne C/Ks
> Sherrill,
>
> I won't get too involved with the COA for now - will wait for Bruce's
comments.
>
> As regards the Devon/Sherborne/Rockborne connection, the issue is complex, but
there is no doubt in my mind that all the families we are dealing with at that
time (around 1400) are connected - Stowfords and all.
> The facts to date being:
>
> Edmund de C/K and his wife left the Wiltshire manor about 1394, although still
apparently remaining patron of St Giles until 1399 (said to be for life). They
went to Cheldon/Chawleigh. In Devon, not far from, but not
to either Mokisbeare, or Stafford Barton. After six years, another family
member, John de C/K, returned as patron of St Giles from 1405-1429. A John also
appeared at Chawleigh during this period, presumably therefore he was a son, or
close relative. (Whether the same man or not we do not know.) There was at
least one John, presumably the father of William of Sherborne, in Sherborne in
the early 1400s.
Another John, presumed to be William of Sherborne's brother, appeared shortly
after (there was a series of three Johns recorded in the 1467 IPM). The Thomas,
who married Joanne Bingham, was in Sherborne around 1400. He is also referred
to in the Mokisbeare Tree, as the son of Edmond, who incidentally was described
as the son of John. (At St Giles there was an earlier patron John, who
apparently died in 1336, and who matched the well known John le Calewe of Dorset
- descended from the Giffards. However the patron immediately prior to Edmund -
from 1336-1376 - was William).
>
The curious thing is that there seems to have been a stated differentiation
between the Devon and Dorset families, although they shared similar arms. There
was mention of intermarriage. The Devon branch was also described elsewhere as
the "younger". Sadly the Dorset Pedigrees only begin with William of Sherborne,
whereas the Devon family, which generally became Stowford then Stafford, is
recorded in detail, perhaps back to William about 1200, certainly to Philip, the
claimed "younger" son, a couple of generations later.
I could not originally find any connective names with the Sherborne family,
although it does now look as though there may have been a Thomas/John/Thomas
succession around 1400. However before and after this time there is no apparent
similarity. The dates for the Dolton family are virtually guesses, and we need a
lot more research in that area. When and where any intermarriage occurred we do
not know.
>
My theory is that the family owned/occupied the properties at Mokisbeare Devon,
Dunes Weston Dorset, and Kellaways Wiltshire, from a very early time, and could
move from one to another as suited the occasion. The eldest son occupying the
principal home, younger sons elsewhere (eg Dolton) and for example, should an
eldest son die without issue, or there was some problem, (as seems to have
occurred in Wiltshire with a Courtenay), or maybe for some reason such as the
building of a new manor (which could have occurred at
Chawleigh), the principal family moved to another county.
>
In this way, while Edmund may have gone to Chawleigh, a son, John, could have
returned to Wiltshire, before moving on to Sherborne. If, as we suspect, Thomas
was Edmund's eldest son, he moved to the Bingham areas of Dorset and Somerset.
(If William of Sherborne's father was a younger son, that could be the reason
for his parentage not appearing in the Pedigrees - particularly as the Heralds
in the 1500s had such a problem sorting the out the later names).
The importance of the Wiltshire manor should not be understated. From Elias de
C/K to John le Calewe they were important in other places. Family members from
there seem to have continuously used the "de" prefix, into the 1400s. When they
lived elsewhere it was discarded. In Devon there was a use of de Stowford,
clearly that location, and a differentiation from the other, but it also could
have meant the place Stowford, rather than Stafford Barton - were they there as
well? (Something else to explore).
>
I suggest, pending hopefully more information, that the first family was known
as de Cailli, and it was their younger sons, possibly born in England, possibly
direct from Caillouet, who made up our first families. Apart
from the Gloucestershire families of the 1200s who could have "reverted" to
Caley or Cayley, the Devon Kelleys could have originated, either from the de
Caillis, or come over direct from Normandy.
As regards the Durham family, the similarity to names in Normandy at the time,
without an obvious direct link further south, makes me suspect that they may
indeed have come direct from Normandy in the early 1200s.
Not sure what we are looking at around Hereford, but the location could be
very old, predating Brimpsfield and Side.
>
We have little information as to who was living at Mokisbeare over this time,
but if the principal family retained all these properties for so long, it is
quite logical that the more remote family members from Stafford Barton could
occupy/lease one or more properties, such as Idlecote or Cheldon, in the 1500s.
>
Hope I am not confusing anyone's thoughts more than before.
Regards
Warwick
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 28, 2003
Subject: Devon Rockborne C/Ks
From: Bruce Callaway
Sent: Aug 29, 2003
Subject: Windows, COA, crossed crosses
A little more on the Hall window of Lillington. Argent a fess between three anvils sable resembles the COA of SMITH, Abingdon, Berks. The crossed crosses to which I clumsily referred are actually a common device. Vide the cross saltire of St.Andrew (Scotland) and the cross saltire of St.Patrick (Ireland). Therefor the 'ermine a cross saltire sable' is virtually a black St. Andrew's cross virtually indistinguishable from our own glaziers nippers.
Bruce
From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 30, 2003
Subject: Getting the generations right!
Here are a few things to consider while trying to get the right
people in the right place at the right time.
>
> Patrons/Presenters at Kellaways, Wilts:
> Date Parish Patron
> 1304 Cayllewey Johannes de Cayllewey
> 1312 " "
> 1336 St Giles, Calewey W. de Cayleway
> 1348 Cayllewey W. de Caillewey
> 1376 Kaylewey Edmund de Kaylewey
> 1380 Kaylewey Edmund de Kaylewey
> 1399 Tudryngton Cayleway Robert Stodeleigh
> 1405 Kayelways John de Kaylewaye
> [That was the last of the C/K patrons of Kellaways through 1936.]
>
> The Stoford/Stafford pedigree (Visit. of Devon) and the "Kellaway of
Stowford" pedigree (same source) lists 8 generations of Kellaways before "they"
say the name changes with Thomas Stowford (d. 18 Jan 1502/3 - of
the Inq. P.M.) who married Ann, d/o Thomas Copleston of Luckham, Somerset.
> The pedigree credits Thomas & Ann with two children:
> 1. Richard Stafford (no additional data)
> 2. Philip Stowford, age 30 in 1503 (b. c1470); d. 22 April 1533; md. Alice
> Yeo (the remainder of the Stoford/Stafford pedigree concerns their
children and heirs).
> A footnote says: "The portion of this pedigree from the commencement in
ordinary type is from the Coll. of Arms and 'other authorities' (I would be
suspicious of the 'other authorities') that part in italic is a copy of
the Visitation of Devon, 1564, Harl. Ms." The italics begin with the above
Thomas = Ann Copleston.
> Using Warwick's calculation of 30 years per generation, I have backed up
the preceeding generations, starting with 1470 for Thomas' birth, and applied
approximate birthdates to those list in the prior 8 generations.
In the States, we use 25 years per generations for estimation purposes. That
would, over time, add a generation or two. For our purpose here, I have applied
estimated years of birth for the 8 generations. However, I have no
> idea how correctly stated the 8 generations are! Whatever, perhaps we can
begin to get our perspective in order.
> The first 8 generations are: (Kalleway)
> I William (b. 1230)
> II Thomas (b. 1260)
> III Philip (b. 1290)
> IV Thomas (b. 1320)
> V Philip (b. 1350)
> VI Thomas (b. 1380); md. d/o Prous, heir to her brother, Hugh Prous of
Gatcombe.
> VII John (b. 1410)
> VIII Thomas (b. 1440) = Joan, d/o ___?___
>
> Moving on up into the next century, let's go to Whiteparish, Wilts.
The list of freeholders there has suddenly become very annoying to me, as you
will see. Mr. Hoar did not give a reference for his list of freeholders, unless
it is from "Court Rolls of the Manor of Whelpley." Wonder where
> those might be located?
> Freeholders:
> 1493 (8 Hen VII) William Cayleway, John Estcourt
> 1498 (13 Hen VII) William Keyleway, John Estcourt
> 1502 (22 Hen VII) William Keyleway, Thomas Estcourt
> 1519 (10 Hen VIII) William Keilway, Thomas Estcourt*
> 1560 (2 Eliz) John Keilway, Edmund Estcourt*
> 1561 (2 Eliz) John Kelloway, Giles Estcourt
> 1569 (11 Eliz) Henry Kelloway, Giles Estcourt
> 1576 (18 Eliz) No C/K - No Estcourt
> * right here is a 40 year gap where we really need to see the descent of this
land!
>
> The William Cayleway, freeholder in 1493, could be William the son of
William (d. 1469) - or it could be his grandson, William. The grandson
certainly appears by 1519.
>
> Back to the Lyte COA. Yes, Bruce, I did recognize the Lyte COA in the
Lillington window. The Lyte pedigree, Visit. of Wilts, 1623) shows that William
"Black Will" Lyte married Dorothea, relicta Buller, d/o Edw. Kellway of
Rockborne [Edw. being an error]. The other C/K connection is that Henricus Lyte
de Lytes Cary mar. "Agnes, Dau. et Coh. of Kellway of Cullompton married 1546;
buried at Charlton 1564: ux 1.".......so we have a Devon and a Rockborne playing
in the same ball game.
> Sherrill
From: Warwick Kellaway
Sent: Aug 30, 2003
Subject: Getting the generations right!
Hi Sherrill
You are pretty right with your dates. Some further comments on the people
involved:
I am fairly sure that the 1304 Johannes is the son of the Dorset man with the
1308 will, or more certainly the 1308 man was, and probably his heir (the Johns
were successive at that time). He would have been the Giffard
inheritor, who died in 1336, and had presumably moved from Dorset to Wiltshire
about the time the first St Giles was built in 1304. However there had been
continuous family possession from perhaps 1165, or not long
after.
(I won't bring up the confusion that these Johns were also said to be "late of
Brimpsfield", and of Mokesbeare.)
Not sure where that patron William fits, or even if there were two of them, as
the list of patrons might imply.
The Mokesbeare Tree gives John as the father of Edmund, so it seems William
could have been Edmund's uncle. Whether Edmund had remained at the Dorset manor
(Dunes Weston or whatever), or lived elsewhere we do not know. I think however
we can assume that the patrons would have lived, for much of their time anyway,
at the adjacent manor. It seems therefore that probably Edmund lived at the
Wiltshire manor from 1374, until he left for Chawleigh about 1394, building more
chapels - one called St Giles. Possibly then remaining at Chawleigh until he
died, being patron of Cheldon rectory from 1396 to 1411.
The John who went back to Wiltshire from 1405-29, also may have had one foot in
Chawleigh, as a John was patron of Cheldon Rectory in 1440. I still think he
was Edmund's son, and brother of our Thomas, both being born around
the time Edmund became patron of St Giles in 1374.
The appearance at Sherborne shortly after this time possibly meant that someone
in the family was still living in Dorset, unless Thomas moved into a Bingham
property after his marriage.
With regard to the Stowford/Stafford family, your dates are within a few of what
I estimated. As for 25 or 30 years, we can only guess. My feeling is that there
was a tendency then for the men to marry later, and we are looking at the male
line. We only need one or two like Robert W&L to really extend the years.
Whitparish I find very interesting. It did go back to the early Sherborne
times, and I must admit I saw it as part of the Estcourt disputes over Bapton,
although it may not have been. William C/K's position is curious.
I now also think he may have been Sir John's brother, as there does not seem to
be anyone in Robert's family who matched. He could have died about 1519 (the
first Sir William died in 1507). Robert apparently always lived in
Sherborne. Could it have reverted to Robert's son Henry, after that 40 years,
because William had no heirs? (I see the Estcourt name there).
John of Cullompton left a chalice or something to Sherborne Abbey. That
suggests the Lyte COA connection at Lillington may have been with him, or more
probably another marriage we are not aware of, rather than any
Rockborne connection with Lillington?
Am still looking at Brian's papers, particularly his Somerset wills in the
1500s. Have also updated my Précis of the Chronicles - now six pages.
Regards
Warwick
From: Sherrill Williams
Sent: Aug 31, 2003
Subject: Edmunds, how many?
I've been checking up on my Edmund references, and have
discovered a contradiction to the list of Patrons/presenters at Kellaways,
Wilts.
The list I recently posted showed:
> > 1348 Callewey (parish) W. de Caillewey, patron - rector presented:
> > Richard Creym
> > That was from a typewritten list, covering the years 1304-1936, in
Wiltshire Record Office, Trowbridge.
> >
> > Another reference: "Wiltshire Institutions," by Thomas Phillips, says:
> > 1337 Capell de Kayleway - Patron: Edmundes de Kayleway - Priest: >
Ricardi Creym.
> > That would shorten the term of "W. de Caillewey" as patron.
> >
> > &nbs